CROW and CHECC

[bograt]

to go off topic the view that CROW act includes caving is only an opinion so far from a QC, it is not the view as yet from DEFRA
to say this come unexpected, maybe it has arrived sooner than expected but the fact this issue has been discussed for so long on here and no doubt by individuals would say it was only time we got to where we are now.
and as to voting and % whether this vote or General Election why is it only 1/3rd (approx.) decide to vote, apathy, lack of understanding, forget, who knows but like someone says it is how democracy works in the UK, like it or not,
I wonder if instead of a yes/no vote it should include another box undecided,

I think this sort of comment would be better made on one of the other threads, I also think it is interesting that Hellie has not yet found a committed 'anti' to put a case??

 

[badger]

I was not going off topic, all these opinions/views have been voiced in this topic. I also agree that it would seem a spoke person for the no campaign has yet to step forward.

 

[NOZ]

Just going to restate my willingness to talk for the 'no' side of the argument, if furnished with some 'no' information. Offer ends Friday, I would like to have time to prepare.

 

[cavermark]

Just going to restate my willingness to talk for the 'no' side of the argument, if furnished with some 'no' information. Offer ends Friday, I would like to have time to prepare.

I've Facebooked Hellie..

 

[hell little caver]

Adam thanks but I have someone. next time phone me 

Hellie

 

[NOZ]

If you have a committed 'no' person, that's great. I was only volunteering to present an argument if nobody else was willing to do it.

 

[hell little caver]

Hi guys

CHECC was a huge success and the CROW debate was great success and the students were all talking about it.
I would like to say a huge thank you to Bob Mehew and Bob Church for taking time to come and talk to our young people

thanks

hellie

 

[bograt]

Had some feedback from this debate;

"Going to vote NO"
"Why?"
"Peak District have got it sorted, very few problems with access, other areas should do the same. Its their problem. They should get their game in order. No need for a change in national policy."

This comes from a university caver who is mostly active in S.Wales and Mendip, opinion comes from the debate.

Thanks for sorting it Hellie, Appears very balanced, was it filmed?

 

[bazdog]

Had some feedback from this debate;

"Going to vote NO"
"Why?"
"Peak District have got it sorted, very few problems with access, other areas should do the same. Its their problem. They should get their game in order. No need for a change in national policy."

This comes from a university caver who is mostly active in S.Wales and Mendip, opinion comes from the debate.

Thanks for sorting it Hellie, Appears very balanced, was it filmed?

From the recent DCA circular
Digging in Stoney Low Swallet has continued spasmodically throughout 2013 and into 2014 until July 2014, when access to caves other than Owl hole that lie on the Dowall Hall Farm land was withdrawn for all cavers. In the interests of access to caves in general in the Peak District it would be appreciated if cavers avoided visiting the caves in the Dowel Dale area, with the exception of Owl Hole that, due to its roadside location/access, is believed not to be
affected. Derbyshire Cavers over the past decades have been very grateful to the late Bill Etch and more latterly his son Rowland Etch for allowing them access to the caves on their land. This recent turn of events is regretful in the light of the very positive relationship that has existed for over 60 years between the Etch?s Family and local cavers.
Please respect the decision.

 

[bazdog]

cont.
the access officers do a great job but if someone deceides they dont like cavers what can they actually do. If someone says what is in it for me? then what can they offer? If you replace Dowel Dale with Leck fell then there would be a problem and would cavers in Derbyshire etc think oh well its Yorkshires problem?

 

[martinm]

cont.
the access officers do a great job but if someone deceides they dont like cavers what can they actually do. If someone says what is in it for me? then what can they offer? If you replace Dowel Dale with Leck fell then there would be a problem and would cavers in Derbyshire etc think oh well its Yorkshires problem?

I'm sure it will get sorted bazdog. I think  you will find the DCA officers are very much aware of the issues in  the different caving regions. Despite what some people in the South think it IS a national issue and as someone who attended the recent BCA C&A meeting I can assure you it is being considered carefully and sensitively. One reason  why BCA is consulting its members.

With regards to Leck/Casterton the new CNCC access orfficer has approached all the major landowners who might be affected by this and none had any real problems with it! Just need to keep them in the loop.

The point is all the people who attend the BCA C&A meetings (representatives of their various regions) appreciate the issues and are working towards a  national policy while taking into account regional differences. It's not rocket science... 

 

[cavermark]

cont.
the access officers do a great job but if someone deceides they dont like cavers what can they actually do. If someone says what is in it for me? then what can they offer? If you replace Dowel Dale with Leck fell then there would be a problem and would cavers in Derbyshire etc think oh well its Yorkshires problem?

Is Dowel Dale on access land?

 

[bazdog]

cont.
the access officers do a great job but if someone deceides they dont like cavers what can they actually do. If someone says what is in it for me? then what can they offer? If you replace Dowel Dale with Leck fell then there would be a problem and would cavers in Derbyshire etc think oh well its Yorkshires problem?

Is Dowel Dale on access land?

No idea, the point is some landowners will decide they don't want caver access and the access officers may not always be able to talk them round. CNCC seem to get a lot of criticism for not improving access but if the landowners aren't interested then what else can they do?

 

[cavermark]

The debate is about changing CROW to secure access to cavers on access land.

Leck Fell is access land so a change to CROW would secure access, whether landowners like it or not.

If Dowel Dale is access land, then a change in CROW would have the same benefit there. If it is not access land it is at the discretion of the landowner and will continue to be, whatever changes are made to CROW.

 

[bazdog]

The debate is about changing CROW to secure access to cavers on access land.

Leck Fell is access land so a change to CROW would secure access, whether landowners like it or not.

If Dowel Dale is access land, then a change in CROW would have the same benefit there. If it is not access land it is at the discretion of the landowner and will continue to be, whatever changes are made to CROW.

Yes I realise what the vote is about, perhaps I should have used a cave on access land but it was just an example of a problem and I was quering whether this statement is the most sensible approach.
Going to vote NO"
"Why?"
"Peak District have got it sorted, very few problems with access, other areas should do the same. Its their problem. They should get their game in order. No need for a change in national policy."

 

[cavermark]

Fair point, bazdog 

 

[martinm]

Hi. The parts of Dowel Dale in question aren't on access land unfortunately, not even Owl Hole, (which is right next to the road, but just outside the access land boundary annoyingly), so we are dependant on the good will of the landowner. It will get sorted I'm sure, but might take a bit of time. I know the background to this problem and it is down to one person! Just need to win her round and then things will be OK again.

As I said upthread, the Dales landowners don't seem to have a problem with the CRoW issue, so let's just see what the majority of BCA members think and take it from there...

 

[bograt]

I was only stating the opinion of one of the delegates at the CHECC conference, the arguments at the debate must have been persuasive, I would love to know what was said.
This thread is about that debate, I fear we are drifting OFF TOPIC!!!

 

[richardg]

The debate is about changing CROW to secure access to cavers on access land.

Leck Fell is access land so a change to CROW would secure access, whether landowners like it or not.

If Dowel Dale is access land, then a change in CROW would have the same benefit there. If it is not access land it is at the discretion of the landowner and will continue to be, whatever changes are made to CROW.

Yes I realise what the vote is about, perhaps I should have used a cave on access land but it was just an example of a problem and I was quering whether this statement is the most sensible approach.
Going to vote NO"
"Why?"
"Peak District have got it sorted, very few problems with access, other areas should do the same. Its their problem. They should get their game in order. No need for a change in national policy."

ITS ALL ABOUT LIABLITY

One thing is for sure if cavers at any stage in the future can not get liability insurance, we will lose access to most British caves.
Those who question this this must realize its happened before and access was withdrawn from many many caves.

If cavers have a right of access through Crow and all farmers and landowners have the fear of litigation removed we will still be assured access

However if we however don't have a right of access through Crow and we can't get liability insurance we and future generations will lose all access to caves because of the very real fear of all sorts of claims against landowners etc.

Vote YES for Crow

 

[bograt]

The debate is about changing CROW to secure access to cavers on access land.

Leck Fell is access land so a change to CROW would secure access, whether landowners like it or not.

If Dowel Dale is access land, then a change in CROW would have the same benefit there. If it is not access land it is at the discretion of the landowner and will continue to be, whatever changes are made to CROW.

Yes I realise what the vote is about, perhaps I should have used a cave on access land but it was just an example of a problem and I was quering whether this statement is the most sensible approach.
Going to vote NO"
"Why?"
"Peak District have got it sorted, very few problems with access, other areas should do the same. Its their problem. They should get their game in order. No need for a change in national policy."

ITS ALL ABOUT LIABLITY

One thing is for sure if cavers at any stage in the future can not get liability insurance, we will lose access to most British caves.
Those who question this this must realize its happened before and access was withdrawn from many many caves.

If cavers have a right of access through Crow and all farmers and landowners have the fear of litigation removed we will still be assured access

However if we however don't have a right of access through Crow and we can't get liability insurance we and future generations will lose all access to caves because of the very real fear of all sorts of claims against landowners etc.

Vote YES for Crow

Where these points made at the CHECC debate??-- I don't know :-\