Dan yr Ogof closed to cavers on Fri 3/6
- Thread starter ptpeaty
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badger
Active member
firstly we should be respectful to each others opinion, I do not know the conversations that have taken place between the 2 bodies. however the arguments put forward I find illogical, the public already have the right in certain caves that have no access arrangements in place to enter, I would say from the very few callouts this does not happen, and if we look at the callouts nearly all are for overdue cavers who have under estimated how long the trip is, no where does it say public in these reports, conservation some caves have suffered, some a lot less, that's down to us cavers, and having a permit/warden/locked cave as we have seen recently in HILS has not stopped damage to the cave, Bats you only have to go a few feet into some very well know caves with no access arrangements to find bats, and I am fairly sure if you go into some show caves and know where to look you will also find bats.
we can also make facts fit what we want, true defra have said crow does not apply to caving, it has also said it does as far as daylight, who determines how far daylight enters? and if there is 1 metre between losing daylight to regaining daylight does this count?
it is also true that there was a large minority who voted no in the bca referendum, but the majority voted yes for the bca to campaign on there behalf, as far as I can see that's what they are doing as instructed, what else are they supposed to do.
I do not know what discussions have taken place from either side and with whom but both sides have facts that the other side does not know, I also understand that not every landowner will support CROW, not every landowner who have to allow crow now supports crow or even public rights away across there land.
I do not believe there will be a quick outcome to the CROW debate but it does not help when we as cavers behave the way we do, and both sides need :spank: :spank:
we can also make facts fit what we want, true defra have said crow does not apply to caving, it has also said it does as far as daylight, who determines how far daylight enters? and if there is 1 metre between losing daylight to regaining daylight does this count?
it is also true that there was a large minority who voted no in the bca referendum, but the majority voted yes for the bca to campaign on there behalf, as far as I can see that's what they are doing as instructed, what else are they supposed to do.
I do not know what discussions have taken place from either side and with whom but both sides have facts that the other side does not know, I also understand that not every landowner will support CROW, not every landowner who have to allow crow now supports crow or even public rights away across there land.
I do not believe there will be a quick outcome to the CROW debate but it does not help when we as cavers behave the way we do, and both sides need :spank: :spank:
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
(from the news article)
"Dan-Yr-Ogof owner, Ashford Price wants to highlight the perceived dangers of amending existing legislation to allow people unimpeded access to caves."
The BCA are not attempting or campaigning to amend existing legislation.
"There are calls to amend the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (CRoW), also known as 'right to roam' law, to allow cavers to go underground on designated CRoW land."
From who? Not the BCA.
(from the Darkness Below article)
"The general public, if told that they have a ?right? to enter any cave on Access Land could be putting themselves in danger. "
I approve of the admission that it is possible the general public _do_ have a right to enter any cave on Access Land. I cannot approve of the idea that we have the right to mislead the 'general public' as to their rights...
As for the safety considerations, there are plenty of other dangerous CROW places - in fact almost by definition anything that is CROW is a wild and potentially dangerous place. That's the point!
"Dan-Yr-Ogof owner, Ashford Price wants to highlight the perceived dangers of amending existing legislation to allow people unimpeded access to caves."
The BCA are not attempting or campaigning to amend existing legislation.
"There are calls to amend the Countryside and Rights of Way Act (CRoW), also known as 'right to roam' law, to allow cavers to go underground on designated CRoW land."
From who? Not the BCA.
(from the Darkness Below article)
"The general public, if told that they have a ?right? to enter any cave on Access Land could be putting themselves in danger. "
I approve of the admission that it is possible the general public _do_ have a right to enter any cave on Access Land. I cannot approve of the idea that we have the right to mislead the 'general public' as to their rights...
As for the safety considerations, there are plenty of other dangerous CROW places - in fact almost by definition anything that is CROW is a wild and potentially dangerous place. That's the point!
PeteHall
Moderator
If a non-caver finds a hole in the ground on access land, there is no sign at the entrance to say "permit holders only"; the only reason we know certain caves "require a permit" is because we own a caving guide book that tells us so.
The reason non-cavers don't go into caves is not because of a perceived access restriction, but because common sense tells them there could be anything in there and it could be dangerous. I really can't believe for a minute that if CRoW was publicly declared to apply to caving that we would suddenly find walkers falling to there death down Gaping Ghyll or anywhere else.
I think I am right in saying that there is no physical barrier or lock on the vast majority of caves in the dales and there are lots of walkers, but there are very few (if any) call-outs relating to non-cavers getting into trouble in a cave. Perhaps someone has some statistics to quantify this?
The reason non-cavers don't go into caves is not because of a perceived access restriction, but because common sense tells them there could be anything in there and it could be dangerous. I really can't believe for a minute that if CRoW was publicly declared to apply to caving that we would suddenly find walkers falling to there death down Gaping Ghyll or anywhere else.
I think I am right in saying that there is no physical barrier or lock on the vast majority of caves in the dales and there are lots of walkers, but there are very few (if any) call-outs relating to non-cavers getting into trouble in a cave. Perhaps someone has some statistics to quantify this?
I think that PeteHall is quite right in what he says. I've caved in the Dales for years, and seen very few 'flashlight cavers' (to use the American expression for non-cavers who wander into a hole they see). Yes, a few walkers and non-cavers find their way into Yordas Cave ? but you hardly have to be a caver to do that. I've perhaps once in my life seen a bunch of adventurous youngsters exploring Upper Long Churn with just hand torches (on a beautiful summer's day) ? they simply walked upstream and back down again, with nothing worse to show for it than wet feet.
So no, I don't think that legislation to allow access to any old cave at will to all and sundry will open the flood gates to lots of incidents involving non-cavers ? in fact I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.
So no, I don't think that legislation to allow access to any old cave at will to all and sundry will open the flood gates to lots of incidents involving non-cavers ? in fact I don't think it will make a blind bit of difference.
Smiley Alan
New member
ca'nt help wondring if this is good for land owner relatons and caving . does'nt look like it , to me.
menacer
Active member
The BCA is acting from a democratic mandate to seek clarification re CROW
Its not realistic to suggest this be halted by a minority group, whoever they are.
Their concerns are not exactly new, different or special. Its just seems to be another attempt by the anticrow camp to halt a ligitimate ongoing process.
I think someone's been taking leafs from eureferendum debate....woooo scary, 1000 will die, formations will be trashed, plague of locusts, green frogs if you vote leave.
Its not realistic to suggest this be halted by a minority group, whoever they are.
Their concerns are not exactly new, different or special. Its just seems to be another attempt by the anticrow camp to halt a ligitimate ongoing process.
I think someone's been taking leafs from eureferendum debate....woooo scary, 1000 will die, formations will be trashed, plague of locusts, green frogs if you vote leave.
Peter Burgess
New member
If you all vote to drive the BCA over Beachy Head, then it might be a good idea to point this out. Or shall we just watch from the nearby clifftop, saying nothing?
These are the members:Martin Laverty said:
England
-Cheddar Cave
-Ingleborough Cave
-Kents Cavern
-Peak Cavern
-Poole's Cavern
-Stump Cross Caverns
-Treak Cliff Cavern
-Wookey Hole
N. Ireland
-Marble Arch Caves
Wales
-Dan Yr Ogof
Ireland
-Aillwee Cave
-Crag Cave
-Doolin
-Dunmore
-Mitchelstown Caves
Not that ABIS have a functioning news page on their website (there is a supposed link). They do have a link to BCRA & a page on conservation...
Mike
cap n chris
Well-known member
Alex said:
Come to Burrington or Priddy on any random weekend to find out how true that is.
nearlywhite
Active member
The statement on DB reads like a party political manifesto. I've had it trying to persuade the 'substantial' minority to come onside and work with landowners in a damage limitation role. Now they're employing scorched earth tactics.
Disgusting.
Disgusting.
Peter Burgess
New member
Are you implying that "they" put ABIS up to it? And are ABIS not capable of thinking for themselves? Are you not prepared to credit ABIS with working out their own position by assessing the sort of thing that gets posted, for example, on this website? And by the BCA in a number of well-publicised press campaigns?
cap n chris
Well-known member
Part-time cavers who have dabbled for a handful of years clearly know far more about caves than people whose livelihoods depend on them and who spend every week of their lives, for decades, dedicated to the management and running of these sites. Stands to reason.
Are any showcaves actually on access land (although top entrances to DyO will be) - even White Scar has a non-yellow area around it on the access maps?
Does the lack of any other announcements about closure suggest that a "significant minority" of owners don't worry about it?
Mike
Does the lack of any other announcements about closure suggest that a "significant minority" of owners don't worry about it?
Mike
2xw
Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
I didn't know charging people a tenner to wander round a hole qualified you in the intricacies of access and liability law and the inner mechanisations of the BCA.
But obviously us prole part timers can never amount to the intellectual might of those who uses caves for commercial gain.
cap n chris
Well-known member
You should engage with some of these people and then discover how wrong your presumptions about them happen to be. Seriously.
Bashing landowners is unlikely to end well for cavers. Caving, of all shades and types should not be at war with itself. A house divided cannot stand.
Bashing landowners is unlikely to end well for cavers. Caving, of all shades and types should not be at war with itself. A house divided cannot stand.
ZombieCake
Well-known member
It's closed for a day, 24 hours, not even on a weekend. Hardly the end of the world, just a 'hang on a minute moment'. Or have I missed the sky falling on my head as Vitalstatistix feared?
I suppose we can all go for virtual reality headsets 'cos that's all may be left if all debate ends up internalised into caving oblivion.
I suppose we can all go for virtual reality headsets 'cos that's all may be left if all debate ends up internalised into caving oblivion.
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