Dan yr Ogof closed to cavers on Fri 3/6

[Clive G]

In order to extend CRoW to cover deep caving or to demonstrate that CRoW already covers deep caving, it's going to have to be demonstrated how exceptions apply for show caves and managed caves and will continue to be provided under CRoW.

Ogof Draenen is a very good example in question here where cavers have sought to create a new entrance to the cave to circumvent the existing cave management scheme. Working from this example, show cave owners will be no less concerned than the Pwll Du Cave Management Group that similar tactics could be employed to create new entries into the cave systems that they otherwise manage, behind and including the show cave operations, should CRoW end up providing unfettered access to caves.

These issues need to be resolved first, before open free access to caves in general can properly be determined.

Ashford Price has been a great ally to cave explorers a number of years ago when he stood up against a proposal made by the Brecon Beacons National Park that cave exploration was a potential development within the National Park and, as such, would require planning permission to be carried out. Thanks to Ashford's help this notion was soon quashed and now Ashford and other show cave owners are looking for cavers' assistance to help protect their situations and enterprises.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Thank you for this, Clive. You are addressing an important point - the relationship between cavers and important and influential cave owners. I doubt it cuts much ice with the crusaders, however.

 

[mikem]

But CRoW doesn't apply to "developed" land, so showcaves could be quite easily excluded in the legislation:

SCHEDULE 1
Excepted land for purposes of Part I

Part I
Excepted land

1 Land on which the soil is being, or has at any time within the previous twelve months been, disturbed by any ploughing or drilling undertaken for the purposes of planting or sowing crops or trees.
2 Land covered by buildings or the curtilage of such land.
3 Land within 20 metres of a dwelling.
4 Land used as a park or garden.
5 Land used for the getting of minerals by surface working (including quarrying).
6 Land used for the purposes of a railway (including a light railway) or tramway.
7 Land used for the purposes of a golf course, racecourse or aerodrome.
8 Land which does not fall within any of the preceding paragraphs and is covered by works used for the purposes of a statutory undertaking or a telecommunications code system, or the curtilage of any such land.
9 Land as respects which development which will result in the land becoming land falling within any of paragraphs 2 to 8 is in the course of being carried out.
10 Land within 20 metres of a building which is used for housing livestock, not being a temporary or moveable structure.
11 Land covered by pens in use for the temporary reception or detention of livestock.
12 Land habitually used for the training of racehorses.
13 Land the use of which is regulated by byelaws under section 14 of the M1Military Lands Act 1892 or section 2 of the M2Military Lands Act 1900.

& the right of access includes no rights to make any changes (e.g. digging) to the land / caves.

Mike

 

[prahja]

If show cave owners ban cavers from their sites, won't it cost them a lot of money to set up their own private cave rescue service ?

 

[Aubrey]

If show cave owners ban cavers from their sites, won't it cost them a lot of money to set up their own private cave rescue service ?

No - the fire brigade will do it!

 

[cap n chris]

Them and us.

Is this a wise game to play? Think things through. Numpties. Cavers really are the best people at cocking up access to caves.

 

[Peter Burgess]

What does it take for the message to get home? A weekend ban rather than a Friday one? A longer period of exclusion? An indefinite or permanent ban? Don't second guess why this is being done - just take some time to see the wider picture. The showcave operators are our friends. Don't treat them as if they are stupid.

 

[mikem]

Yep, the best way to "win" an internet argument is not to reply, then the subject disappears off down the forum page...

Mike

 

[Pete K]

In follow up to the list of members being posted.....
Not every member of ABIS is likely to support this, ABIS itself is only an association and has no power over any of the member businesses.
I am aware of at least one of the sites on the ABIS list that has actually pulled out of the association because of this issue.

 

[caving_fox]

ABIS don't need to ban cavers from accessing DYO the weather gods will do that just fine on their own!

 

[David Rose]

I am not going to mince words. The ABIS position is shamefully misleading, a total red herring, conceived for who knows what reason. Nothing in the campaign to get recognition that CROW extends to caves will affect its members businesses. Their deluded fantasy about people wandering round previously gated caves with candles or whatever it is they envisage has no place in this debate.

As for Dan yr Ogof: for ordinary caving mortals, it might as well be closed. Fixing up a trip is extremely awkward and time consuming, especially if one doesn't usually cave with a club. And its owner has on occasion banned people for trying to make what would be one of the greatest discoveries in British caving - ways into the system from one of its many sinks. Let's get this right. The arrangements there are fundamentally unstable, and they are dependent on an individual's whim - as he is now, with his mendacious grandstanding to the local media, proving. This is not how things should be.

 

[Tom_1]

I am slightly curious as to how ABIS plan on implementing their ban for the day? Will they be putting up a sign politely saying "If you are a caver please tell us and then go away" or are they just closing and all having a day off?...

 

[mikem]

Good to see people thinking before they post on a PUBLIC forum. Inflammatory remarks are just going to get people's backs up & lose us further access, as we currently don't have any rights.

Cavers will still be allowed to pay their money & enter the showcave sections, they won't be able to do longer trips in the systems.

Mike

 

[MarkS]

On reflection, I think what bugs me about these articles is that the points being made don't seem to be associated with the organisation from which they are coming from.

The concerns essentially seem to relate to the safety of the public visiting non-show caves, to conservation of non-show caves and to the democratic processes of the BCA, all of which are unrelated to show caves. I don't doubt that show cave owners are very knowledgeable about caves, or that they have a right to put forward their opinions. However, what concerns me is why these issues that are unrelated to show caves are being put forward by ABIS as an organisation, rather than as individuals speaking as BCA members.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Neanderthals more imaginative than the average UKC member.

 

[Tom_1]

Neanderthals more imaginative than the average UKC member.

Nice to see people having a polite debate on here.

 

[mikem]

We'd be better off all going caving 

Mike

 

[Jopo]

Neanderthals more imaginative than the average UKC member.

Nice to see people having a polite debate on here.

Tom_1

I see you do not include Mr Rose in your quote regardless of his comments about Ashford's point of view.

Typically selective criticism so common on this forum.

Jopo

 

[Peter Burgess]

I apologise to the average UKC member. Which member is the average one anyway?

 

[mikem]

The average is the silent majority who don't want / can't be bothered to post...

Mike