Fixed Aids and Safety Installations

[IanWalker]

I understand it is up to the instructor and/or their employer to choose a venue suitable for their clients/skills/experience/equipment. I think this would be a sensible application of Health and Safety Law.

Referencing Health and Safety at Work etc. Act (1974) sounds grand but does not pull the wool over everyone's eyes. It does not, for example, justify changing the environment to enable you or your guided party to get slightly further than they otherwise would.

Mountain guides, scuba instructors, kayak guides will all face similar issues but do not need to continually modify the environment they operate in. How could they? And why would they?

It seems to me that some people frame their argument as 'Safety' when really the root of the discussion is about 'Liability' and 'Money'.

 

[ChrisB]

Does this help explain the two very disparate and opposed ends of the risk spectrum sufficiently?

Yes, I understand the logic so far as "safety" is concerned, although there's a debate to be had about where to draw the line between modifying the natural environment to make it safer versus choosing a venue where that's not necessary.

That logic doesn't, however, apply to fixed aids:

Loki used the words "fixed aids". Is there a difference in the acceptability of fixed aids compared to safety installations?

 

[cap n chris]

There's many sites with fixed aids and presumably they're placed for a reason. Not understanding the reason doesn't really equate to supporting an opinion about them. I quite like the option that cavers have which is to not use something if they choose not to, purist-style.

 

[cap n chris]

2:25 on. Seems relevant.

 

[cap n chris]

And, yes, SIs are about safety and ease. Would love to hear anyone trying to argue against either, without making themselves sound insane.

 

[Ian P]

I know of two places in the dales where additional fixed aids were placed by guides taking paying clients through. That is definitely overstepping the mark imo.

Just to state for “the record”, as an occasional caving instructor, all I “need” (and I would assume the vast majority of instructors) is a cave that is anchored in a sensible and considered manner for the “typical” expected end user.

In this regard I see absolutely no difference between “instructors”, club members taking less experienced members, student cavers taking “freshers”, in fact any caver “using” the cave.

Any debates on “fixed aids” / “safety installations” should focus on the general caving population (“Typical user” for said cave) and not any particular sector.

Now if someone could move some of the caves closer to the roads then that would be really useful 😃

 

[cap n chris]

Are there any Freshers-suitable caves where the newbies find they would be able to complete the trip if a couple of additional SIs had been placed?

 

[cap n chris]

Feels akin to the kind of impasse which might exist in the climbing world between trad afficionados and keen via ferrataistas.

I had thought cavers enjoyed the Croesor through trip but apparently it's not cricket. Hey ho, takes all sorts to make a world.

 

[Ian P]

Are there any Freshers-suitable caves where the newbies find they would be able to complete the trip if a couple of additional SIs had been placed?

I would suggest that good “mentoring”, practice and training is a better solution to safely passing obstacles that are deemed “reasonable” by the majority of other cavers, rather than fixing metal work.

In answer to your actual question. I am not aware of any sections of caves used by “freshers”, “Novices” in Yorkshire that can’t be safely overcome with the help of a friendly “mentor”.

 

[Ian P]

Feels akin to the kind of impasse which might exist in the climbing world between trad afficionados and keen via ferrataistas.

I had thought cavers enjoyed the Croesor through trip but apparently it's not cricket. Hey ho, takes all sorts to make a world.

I would suggest the BIG difference is Cave / Mine.

A bit like comparing a crag to an indoor climbing wall to keep Your climbing analogy going?

 

[ChrisB]

Now if someone could move some of the caves closer to the roads then that would be really useful 😃

Tricky. Moving the roads closer to the caves would be feasible, but controversial (for most people).

 

[mikem]

Drive a tunnel through them, thus avoiding spoiling the landscape & needing rope work... 🤣

 

[Samouse1]

Are there any Freshers-suitable caves where the newbies find they would be able to complete the trip if a couple of additional SIs had been placed?

Yes, a great deal, university cavers don’t put in any other fixed aids, they use what is put in by the local caving councils. I’ve taken many a novice who has needed a helping hand up a climb, or to be told where to put themselves, and never thought that the cave needed to be altered more than it already had to make it more acceptable for novices. The caves don’t exist for us to turn into a sanitised playground.

If a novice cannot do a part of a cave eg. Go down a pitch, then they need more training to be able to do that. Adding more fixed aids than necessary is not the answer

 

[ChrisB]

Yes, a great deal,

Reading the rest of your reply (which I agree with) and the wording of the quote from cap n chris, I think you mean "No, none at all"?

 

[Samouse1]

Reading the rest of your reply (which I agree with) and the wording of the quote from cap n chris, I think you mean "No, none at all"?

Aye, what you said 😂😂

 

[Babyhagrid]

Are there any Freshers-suitable caves where the newbies find they would be able to complete the trip if a couple of additional SIs had been placed?

The only places I found I could have used some extra help . Is squeezes being made a bit bigger. Would make my caving a bit safer if I could fit through with an SRT kit and undersuit on.

However I dont want caves to be made larger just because larger cavers like me struggle.

 

[cap n chris]

Yes, a great deal, university cavers don’t put in any other fixed aids, they use what is put in by the local caving councils. I’ve taken many a novice who has needed a helping hand up a climb, or to be told where to put themselves, and never thought that the cave needed to be altered more than it already had to make it more acceptable for novices. The caves don’t exist for us to turn into a sanitised playground.

If a novice cannot do a part of a cave eg. Go down a pitch, then they need more training to be able to do that. Adding more fixed aids than necessary is not the answer

If a novice can't do it, doesn't cave rescue do it for them?

 

[cap n chris]

I would suggest the BIG difference is Cave / Mine.

A bit like comparing a crag to an indoor climbing wall to keep Your climbing analogy going?

There are numerous caves, not mines, which have significant amounts of fixed aids, wire traverses, etc. around Europe and elsewhere, in classic caves, forming classic trips, placed by cavers but the philosophy doesn't seems to have been imported here yet. Perhaps it never will be. Shame. Imo.

 

[cap n chris]

The only places I found I could have used some extra help . Is squeezes being made a bit bigger. Would make my caving a bit safer if I could fit through with an SRT kit and undersuit on.

However I dont want caves to be made larger just because larger cavers like me struggle.

Funnily enough this general topic formed part of a digging debate we've had. Obviously we're making the dig easier to commute to and when works are complete we have the option to brick up the widened bits to restore the original challenge. One point of view was to have a dual carriageway, one for dinkies and the other for lardies, people choosing which box they'd prefer to tick. Perhaps we could start manufacturing harder bits of cave for people who relish needless challenges. Discuss.

 

[mikem]

Majority of digs have been widened at some point to make it easier - is creating a bypass going to do more damage than making the original route larger?

In the past cavers have added far more unnecessary bolts than instructors ever will, & if there's ever a rescue then the latter are likely to be appreciated.