Fixed Aids and Safety Installations

[cap n chris]

Mendip cavers might do well to install bolts in St Cuthbert's Swallet and remove the unnecessary fixed ladders. Long overdue IMO.

 

[kay]

Tricky. Moving the roads closer to the caves would be feasible, but controversial (for most people).

You could argue that they did that with Simpsons/Swinstow when they dug Valley Entrance

 

[mikem]

Or in the opposite direction with OFD2!

 

[hannahb]

There are numerous caves, not mines, which have significant amounts of fixed aids, wire traverses, etc. around Europe and elsewhere, in classic caves, forming classic trips, placed by cavers but the philosophy doesn't seems to have been imported here yet. Perhaps it never will be. Shame. Imo.

What caving trips in the UK are you currently unable to do because such fixed aids have not been installed?

 

[cap n chris]

All of the excellent and awesome ones.

 

[andrewmcleod]

There are definitely places where lack of height makes certain obstacles in caves much more difficult/impossible. South Wales might have more than its fair share...

For example, many people found the (previous) aids on Low's Chain in OFD1 on the round trip very difficult if you were short as the aid ladder started several feet up in the air. It's true lots of people had no problem at all with this climb, but lots of people did as well. There is now a line of Via Ferrata steps on this climb, which were installed because this is a flood escape route from the streamway (and so needs to be easy for everyone).

Another example - I know people who have gone on expeditions, have been deep in the Gouffre Berger, on the local cave rescue team and probably done a lot more besides but don't do the OFD through trip (at least in the 1 -> 2 direction) because the climb up the start of Maypole Inlet is very difficult if you are short. In classic OFD style, there is a fixed aid there (a step, controversially installed following an accident) but it's above head height so doesn't help with with the tricky first climb out of the water...

Personally I think that while being able to do what are essentially short boulder problems is a useful skill in cavers, requiring people to do them on an otherwise technically easy trip can be rather exclusionary to competent and tough but shorter/less strong cavers (conflict of interest declaration: I am a shorter and less strong caver, although generally make do as I came into caving from climbing).

 

[Babyhagrid]

A lot of climbing obstacles can be solved with human hand and footholds and appropriate slings from naturals. You can boost people a meter or so up out of streamway at maypole Inlet making th climb much much easier

 

[mikem]

The reason Europe has more fixed aids (in both their caves & climbs) is because they are often longer than here & people have developed a different ethos

 

[Fjell]

Give me being short over tall any day in caving. I don’t fit into half the caves in the black book, and probably last could when I was 18 (maybe). I haven’t done Blue Pencil since I was 18, and you can forget it now for sure.

All you need for climbs is a fully mobile step about 5’ above the ground. So my wife tells me.

 

[snotholing]

All of the excellent and awesome ones.

Maybe you should be better at caving then.

 

[Samouse1]

If a novice can't do it, doesn't cave rescue do it for them?

If a novice, who has been TAKEN somewhere by someone else, paid or otherwise, cannot do something, and it ends in a rescue, surely it is the leaders choice of venue that is the problem rather than the cave itself

 

[cap n chris]

The reason Europe has more fixed aids (in both their caves & climbs) is because they are often longer than here & people have developed a different ethos

Arguably the ethos is that they're less obtuse and more open to progression.

 

[cap n chris]

If a novice, who has been TAKEN somewhere by someone else, paid or otherwise, cannot do something, and it ends in a rescue, surely it is the leaders choice of venue that is the problem rather than the cave itself

Fully agree.

 

[cap n chris]

Maybe you should be better at caving then.

Obviously I should be. I must try harder.

 

[cap n chris]

A lot of climbing obstacles can be solved with human hand and footholds and appropriate slings from naturals. You can boost people a meter or so up out of streamway at maypole Inlet making th climb much much easier

What if you're a five foot tall female doing the same trip ten times a week with lardies? Personally I'd consider putting in something for the lardies to climb which means I'm not taking an unnecessary hammering each day. Wouldn't you?

 

[cap n chris]

If a novice, who has been TAKEN somewhere by someone else, paid or otherwise, cannot do something, and it ends in a rescue, surely it is the leaders choice of venue that is the problem rather than the cave itself

Ok. What if you explicitly detail the nature of the trip beforehand and the person says they're aok to do it, is it still your fault if you find out they lied and are a useless pile of shite? What's the deal then? Keen to hear your views. Real life scenarios are plentiful, if you think I'm blowing it out of my arse.

 

[Babyhagrid]

What if you're a five foot tall female doing the same trip ten times a week with lardies? Personally I'd consider putting in something for the lardies to climb which means I'm not taking an unnecessary hammering each day. Wouldn't you?

i get used as a ladder on many of my caving trips. lardies tend to get smaller every trip

 

[cap n chris]

i get used as a ladder on many of my caving trips. lardies tend to get smaller every trip

Occupational health guidelines would doubtless advise you against that. They'd probably urge a more sustainable and less impactful solution.

 

[Fjell]

Occupational health guidelines would doubtless advise you against that. They'd probably urge a more sustainable and less impactful solution.

The leader climbs it and rigs something. A short ladder for instance. It’s not wocket science. If the trip leader can’t climb something that needs climbing I would think you are heading for bigger problems eventually. Do something different.

 

[Samouse1]

Ok. What if you explicitly detail the nature of the trip beforehand and the person says they're aok to do it, is it still your fault if you find out they lied and are a useless pile of shite? What's the deal then? Keen to hear your views. Real life scenarios are plentiful, if you think I'm blowing it out of my arse.

These days I try to lean away from “leading” trips and more towards caving with equals who I trust not to kill themselves underground. But when I did my thinking was more like the below.

Have they been in a similar situation before and understand the nature of a cave? You can be the fittest fell runner, but still have no idea how to move through a cave. I always take peoples self proclamations with a pinch of salt without having seen them underground first. If I’m leading a trip, I like to talk to people who have seen the person underground first, to get an idea of what level of trip I should lean towards. If they haven’t been underground before, there’s only certain caves I would trust to do.