How do BCAs problems impact cavers, caving, and caves?

[Jenny P]

I mean, is it imaginable that British caving could go on without BCA?

There''s no doubt that caving would continue without the BCA. We have regional organisations such as the DCA, CNCC etc. They do a lot of work regionally regarding access, conservation, bolting, training etc.

As Secretary of DCA I am well aware of the support we receive as a regional council from BCA.  If we had to fund for ourselves all the bolting, conservation work, access work, etc. which we do, then the funds would have to be raised from the relatively small number of clubs who choose to belong to DCA so we would have to charge them a fairly substantial subscription.  As it is, BCA funds a substantial proportion of this work, which is to the benefit of all those who cave in the Peak District, not just our local clubs.  It also, of course, benefits those independent cavers who choose not to belong to BCA, DCA or to a club - but that's OK. 

The point is that the cost incurred regionally is shared out overall through the much larger membership of BCA so all of us benefit.  DCA does not charge its member clubs a subscription but it does ask that they are members of BCA - this seems only fair when BCA is providing the funds and the DCA members provide the manpower.

DCA doesn't set up access agreements which require membership of DCA, or even of BCA, we try to make them as open as we can so that all cavers, independent or otherwise, can benefit.  There are a few local landowners who insist on BCA insurance for cavers visiting caves on their land and DCA has to comply with this where the landowner insists.  This is because we realise that without the BCA insurance scheme there are a few caves where there would be no access at all.

As a regional council DCA would be hard pushed if it were not for BCA, though maybe other regions with a larger number of local clubs could manage.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I have it on good authority that a SW BCA replacement is in the pipes.

 

[Kenilworth]

Kenilworth - You are obviously anti anything that organises cavers into groups.

Not quite. National groups, yes, because national policies cannot serve local needs. But it also has to do with what the organizations are for. If they're for getting people easy, commitment-free access to delicate places, I can't support them. I certainly respect your right to do so.

Jenny, thanks for that information. It seems to suggest that Caving, as it is, would be unable to continue at its current scope without BCA (or some equivalent replacement).

But now what about caves? How would they be impacted? And what about you individual cavers? Would you continue caving without BCA or replacement? How would your habits be effected?

 

[Simon Wilson]

... What of those who fund their own bolting ... ?

This

! No longer available

 

[Kenilworth]

Simon, I reckon that your implication is that without BCA funding, cavers would choose the cheapest option, expansion bolts (or whatever you call them), which would be dropping out of walls willy-nilly leaving dead cavers lying about everywhere. I get that bolts are your special thing, but that's nonsense, as evidenced by caving culture in the US, where almost all caves are bolted with (self-financed) expansion anchors, which are not failing or killing anyone.

Now, if you had posted a video of the ruins of a pitch-head, spotted with obsolete bolts (which video I'm sure you have), you would have at least made a valid argument.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Now, if you had posted a video of the ruins of a pitch-head, spotted with obsolete bolts...

 

[Madness]

As Secretary of DCA I am well aware of the support we receive as a regional council from BCA.  If we had to fund for ourselves all the bolting, conservation work, access work, etc. which we do, then the funds would have to be raised from the relatively small number of clubs who choose to belong to DCA so we would have to charge them a fairly substantial subscription.  As it is, BCA funds a substantial proportion of this work, which is to the benefit of all those who cave in the Peak District, not just our local clubs.  It also, of course, benefits those independent cavers who choose not to belong to BCA, DCA or to a club - but that's OK. 

The point is that the cost incurred regionally is shared out overall through the much larger membership of BCA so all of us benefit.  DCA does not charge its member clubs a subscription but it does ask that they are members of BCA - this seems only fair when BCA is providing the funds and the DCA members provide the manpower.

DCA doesn't set up access agreements which require membership of DCA, or even of BCA, we try to make them as open as we can so that all cavers, independent or otherwise, can benefit.  There are a few local landowners who insist on BCA insurance for cavers visiting caves on their land and DCA has to comply with this where the landowner insists.  This is because we realise that without the BCA insurance scheme there are a few caves where there would be no access at all.

As a regional council DCA would be hard pushed if it were not for BCA, though maybe other regions with a larger number of local clubs could manage.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

Jenny has made a very valid point - that independant, non-club, non-BCA cavers like myself are benefiting from work funded by the BCA. I don't think that she was suggesting that we're 'freeloaders', but that's essentially what we may be if we don't offer anything in return. I personally don't feel comfortable about this so I may have to change my opinion about club membership, or make a donation to a bolting fund (if there is one).

 

[mch]

Or you could support DCA by joining as an individual member - 10 quid well spent!

 

[Ship-badger]

Now, if you had posted a video of the ruins of a pitch-head, spotted with obsolete bolts...

This would make a good wezzit. Calf Holes?

 

[Simon Wilson]

Now, if you had posted a video of the ruins of a pitch-head, spotted with obsolete bolts...

--------------------PHOTO

This would make a good wezzit. Calf Holes?

There are some clues in the picture.

It's an anchor museum. I've had a long relationship with this cave and I can tell you when and by whom a few of those anchors were installed over a period of about forty years. I don't take installing anchors lightly. The one IC resin anchor in the photo was installed in a hole that had previously held a Petzl Long[short]life.

 

[Simon Wilson]

There are more anchors in the same wall that can't be seen in the previous photo and there are more in the opposite wall.
This is the home-made hanger at the bottom left of the previous photo; to the left is a Spit and to the right is a Rawlbolt sleeve.

 

[Beardy]

This would make a good wezzit. Calf Holes?

Rift Pot -on the Allotment ?

 

[todcaver]

Kenilworth - You are obviously anti anything that organises cavers into groups.

Not quite. National groups, yes, because national policies cannot serve local needs. But it also has to do with what the organizations are for. If they're for getting people easy, commitment-free access to delicate places, I can't support them. I certainly respect your right to do so.

Do us all a favour , Respect our rights to access and crawl back under your bridge  :chair:

 

[Kenilworth]

Do us all a favour , Respect our rights to access and crawl back under your bridge  :chair:

"Right to access"
There's a topic for a good few hours with the pencil! (don't be frightened, I won't post it)
However, tod, I don't know it you're talking about legal right, or moral right, or both. I don't know or care what legal rights you (or I) may have, but you do indeed have the moral right to morally access everything you have morally earned. I respect that.

 

[cap n chris]

Do us all a favour , Respect our rights to access and crawl back under your bridge  :chair:

"Right to access"
There's a topic for a good few hours with the pencil! (don't be frightened, I won't post it)
However, tod, I don't know it you're talking about legal right, or moral right, or both. I don't know or care what legal rights you (or I) may have, but you do indeed have the moral right to morally access everything you have morally earned. I respect that.

Am pretty sure cavers also have legal right to legally access any caves they legally own. Or ones whose legal owners have said they are welcome to visit. I respect that.

 

[Kenilworth]

Do us all a favour , Respect our rights to access and crawl back under your bridge  :chair:

"Right to access"
There's a topic for a good few hours with the pencil! (don't be frightened, I won't post it)
However, tod, I don't know it you're talking about legal right, or moral right, or both. I don't know or care what legal rights you (or I) may have, but you do indeed have the moral right to morally access everything you have morally earned. I respect that.

Am pretty sure cavers also have legal right to legally access any caves they legally own. Or ones whose legal owners have said they are welcome to visit. I respect that.

I consider my legal rights invalid if they are not moral, and my moral rights valid whether or not they are legal. That's why I don't quite understand the many debates about access on this site. The interpretation of a law or the policies of hobby government shouldn't really matter.

 

[mikem]

But how can you be so sure that your morals line up with other people's?

Mike

 

[Kenilworth]

But how can you be so sure that your morals line up with other people's?

Mike

I cannot, and do not wish to be. I've got no interest in having my conscience shaped by popular morality.

 

[mikem]

So what is your code of conduct?

 

[cavemanmike]

so you consider your moral integrity to be superior than your fellow caver