How do BCAs problems impact cavers, caving, and caves?

[alastairgott]

What makes you draw the spurious link between "landowner annoyance" with "overpopulation".

Further to this (and seen as anything is "on topic") even with a small number of 4x4 vehicles passing across someone's land you can create landowner annoyance, and extreme damage to someones land.

But this is a different topic entirely.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=7735.0

 

[Madness]

My 'What disease?' question was aimed at Kenilworth. I'm interested to hear what 'disease' he believes we are creating.

In the 29 years since I first went caving, there's been a decline in caver numbers. Kenilworth would no doubt applaud this fact, when in reallity, it's bad for caves and the pass-time of caving.

 

[cavemanmike]

i would be interested to know if kenilworth is on any other caving/undergroind forums.
also i wonder if he is related to a certain MR M who also used to aggravate the life out of this forum's users 

 

[alastairgott]

My 'What disease?' question was aimed at Kenilworth. I'm interested to hear what 'disease' he believes we are creating.

In the 29 years since I first went caving, there's been a decline in caver numbers. Kenilworth would no doubt applaud this fact, when in reallity, it's bad for caves and the pass-time of caving.

Mine was too, it just took a bit longer to write

 

[alastairgott]

we need to build a (fire)wall to keep the American's off the forum  :tease:

 

[NewStuff]

we need to build a (fire)wall to keep the American's off the forum  :tease:

Some of them are fine... but this one is, as stated repeatedly, a Troll. You explain an answer in a simple and normal fashion, and he "misses the point" and carries on bitching about 'too many cavers' and the like.

 

[alastairgott]

Yeh I know quite a few, my brother's even naturalising, and he's not half bad.

 

[droid]

Kenilworth is a Troll, in the sense that he posts very controversial sounding points in such a dense manner that you're left wondering what the f**k it is he's on about.

Then, when you ask him politely to clarify in a concise manner, he either changes the subject, ignores the request or plain refuses.

If he was serious in wanting to generate discussion, he'd make his points in a manner accessible to his target audience.

 

[NewStuff]

Kenilworth is a Troll, in the sense that he posts very controversial sounding points in such a dense manner that you're left wondering what the f**k it is he's on about.

Then, when you ask him politely to clarify in a concise manner, he either changes the subject, ignores the request or plain refuses.

If he was serious in wanting to generate discussion, he'd make his points in a manner accessible to his target audience.

Exactly my point. He has no intention whatsoever of actually discussing the issue at hand, he just tries out new approaches when he realises the old one is getting no traction here, to berate us for actually *shock, horror* going caving...

 

[todcaver]

Correction = Now very Boring Troll 

 

[Kenilworth]

i would be interested to know if kenilworth is on any other caving/undergroind forums.
also i wonder if he is related to a certain MR M who also used to aggravate the life out of this forum's users 

I used to use the NSS forum, Cavechat, very regularly. Aside from that, I don't use any forums or "social media". If you're talking about Graham Mullan, the answer is no. In fact, I seem to recall him referring to some of my earliest posts on this site as "airy-fairy nonsense," a phrase I quite took a liking to.

 

[droid]

Graham was (is) very good at saying things concisely.

 

[Kenilworth]

What makes you draw the spurious link between "landowner annoyance" with "overpopulation".

Kay's posts, which stated that caver representatives are needed to avoid individual access requests which would annoy landowners. I'm only asking if there being fewer cavers would eliminate the need for this mediation, and allow individuals to form agreements and relationships with owners. I don't think that this is realistic in the UK, since caver numbers would probably need to drop dramatically first.

In other words, is the cure creating the disease?

What disease?

As above, I'm asking if caving organizations have created an overpopulation of cavers that makes representation necessary to avoid pestering landowners to death?

Active recruitment of Cavers:
1) keeps the sport alive.
2) keeps the relevant Rescue organisations topped up with experienced cavers.
3) Is not detrimental to the state of the Caves in the UK.

Points 2 is valid, and I can accept that 3 is accurate in the UK. I can't figure point 1 however... "The sport" is a non-feeling non-entity and there is no reason to keep it alive for its own sake.

In the 29 years since I first went caving, there's been a decline in caver numbers. Kenilworth would no doubt applaud this fact, when in reallity, it's bad for caves and the pass-time of caving.

Again, a pastime doesn't need protection. People will always be interested in caves and, able to satisfy their interests, with or without organizations or recruitment. But how are declining caver numbers bad for caves? This is claimed constantly here in the US, but I have seen (and have tried to relate on this site) overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

I do not see you researching any of the examples that any of are giving and poking holes in them

That's because I'm very far away... The responses given have led to lots and lots research. I wouldn't poke holes in anything just for giggles.

You are basically trying to poke holes in our country and find problems where there are none!

Not at all. I found real problems in the US, and about the time I had seen and experienced enough to begin to understand them and be able to write about them, the NSS caving forum died off. So I started reading this forum, and found that there seemed to be some similarities that might make discussion here worthwhile. I know that there are important differences, and I have been corrected and educated by many of the responses given. But I still hope to keep progressing in my own understanding of these problems, and it is valuable for me to hear the opinions of others, and to have my own opinions tested.

If there are any of you who believe I'm ignoring your questions or comments, I probably am. I'm trying to respond to those who seem to know what they are talking about and who are able to comprehend my admittedly messy line of thinking. I don't have time for the rest.

 

[Kenilworth]

Graham was (is) very good at saying things concisely.

He is indeed, and a real master at provocation. And far more intelligent than myself. I'm as sorry as anyone that my linguistic abilities are so stunted.

 

[droid]

If there are any of you who believe I'm ignoring your questions or comments, I probably am. I'm trying to respond to those who seem to know what they are talking about and who are able to comprehend my admittedly messy line of thinking. I don't have time for the rest.

Being patronising doesn't help you get over your point. Whatever it is.

'Messy line of thinking'? Doesn't come close. Ill considered 'stream of consciousness meanderings' might be closer.

I don't have time to pick the reasoning out of such nonsense.

Perhaps that is why you (had to?0 give up on the yank forums.....

Have a nice day.

 

[Kenilworth]

The thread started by Jpasch25 interests me. While it is a small example, it is evidence that there exist individuals who are motivated enough to get off of their backsides and explore their surroundings without prodding from a club. And more than simply tour a little cave, the man is asking questions and has tested the water and panned the sediment! Didn't someone write earlier that without recruitment there would be no "interested and intelligent people" asking questions or studying caves?

I do not know how extensive his underground activities may become, or would become in the absence of any help whatsoever, but he's made a start all by himself. There are enough available resources that he or anyone may, if they wish, become extremely knowledgeable and experienced without ever joining a club, meeting another caver, or knowing that NSS exists.

 

[kay]

I think there may be a difference in the UK. It's probably fair to say that any open hole will already be known and have been explored. The water will probably already have been dye tested. Exploration in the UK almost always involves digging. Although there is a lot of information in the public domain, eg about access and landowner requirements, information about exploration is harder to come by, and one thing joining a club does help with is communication, making sure that you don't repeat work that's already done or inadvertently  mess up the efforts of other people.

 

[Kenilworth]

You are correct. But exploration is about an individual relationship with one's surroundings, not originality. The emphasis on original exploration, original science, original art, original thought, etc. is a product of an ignorant and narcissistic society. For a long time, I said that original exploration was my primary caving interest. That's because I got an ego boost out of being the first to see and report things. When I withdrew from organized caving I was able to recognize how nonsensical that was. I still get a thrill out of finding virgin cave, but for different reasons. Virgin caves mean untainted access to questions, and sometimes answers. They make possible a relationship that is more detailed and complete.

The archival of documentation is important to anyone interested in caves, or anything else for that matter; it's one of the ways we progressively learn. So caving clubs are doing a valuable thing when they document their work (though having read every club publication produced in the US for a period of two years I can say that most are doing extremely little work (learning) at all). But this doesn't mean that recreational clubs are needed to document activity. Most US states have organizations set up to collect all known documentation of every cave in their state. Some exist apart from NSS or caving clubs, and all have varying degrees of strictness where data requests are concerned. While club cavers have been significant contributors, so have individual, independent and unaffiliated cavers, some of whom have contributed the most extensive bodies of work done in their regions. Anyway, the value of such organizations is not in the quantity of the data, but in the completeness and security of the data. So they could continue providing equal value to researchers and interested persons in the complete absence of the "caving scene".

 

[NewStuff]

...spergy waffle...

So, as I read it, you think that unless you're sending some kind of unspecified data to an unspecified organisation, you shouldn't be caving? That you think finding new ground is narcissistic? I suspect you will find yourself in a minority of one.

I'm also betting you are, yet again, not able to give an answer in any reasonable length or to not waffle on at a tangent in an effort to distract us from the fact that every single time you have been met with questions requiring a firm answer, you have studiously avoided any debate. I presume because you know you're onto a loser, and are just looking to stir things up.

 

[Kenilworth]

So, as I read it, you think that unless you're sending some kind of unspecified data to an unspecified organisation, you shouldn't be caving? That you think finding new ground is narcissistic? I suspect you will find yourself in a minority of one.

No. Data archival is valuable if we are to build upon one another's work and if we want to attain an understanding that is greater than otherwise possible in a single lifetime. But sharing data is not required. It is ok to duplicate work. It is ok to learn for one's own sake. It is ok to be content to operate within the intimacy of one's own time and place.

No, finding new ground is not narcissistic. The fixation on originality is, because it ignores roots, traditions, sources, inspirations, and responsibility to community needs. As it relates to cave exploration, finding new caves is not narcissistic per se, but is often motivated by egotism and competition. This makes caving about the caver, not about the cave, and puts us in a poor position to appreciate and care for the things we find.