Improved rope washing ?

[Gollum]

years ago I washed both Beal 10.5 and gold with a pressure washer and they came up like new. I wish  I had cut them open to see the results. The rope didn't get cut and looked brand new .
My results were from trying it. All those making comments about it'll cut the rope or it forces grit and mud into the core, I take it you've also tried it have you .
I was told a man in a red suit sneaks into the house on December the 25th to leave presents. Now I don't want to burst anyones bubble but I don't think he doe :ras: :-\s.

 

[cavermark]

years ago I washed both Beal 10.5 and gold with a pressure washer and they came up like new. I wish  I had cut them open to see the results. The rope didn't get cut and looked brand new .
My results were from trying it. All those making comments about it'll cut the rope or it forces grit and mud into the core, I take it you've also tried it have you .
I was told a man in a red suit sneaks into the house on December the 25th to leave presents. Now I don't want to burst anyones bubble but I don't think he doe :ras: :-\s.

I have cut through all sorts of materials with jet washers, yes. Admittedly, it was when I went close with a powerful unit, but I've seen enough so that I won't wash ropes that way (an inadvertent move too close and you might not even notice you've cut numerous fibres). The grit theory is a plausible THEORY, until rigorously tested and proved wrong it makes sense to me, and I don't have a problem with the alternative methods. Maybe some drop testing of heavily jet washed rope samples is required.

Comparison with Santa is a bit extreme. If you did a back yard test to detect the Higgs bosun and found nothing, Gollum, would that mean CERN should just give up their experiments?

(see Rhys's post earlier in this thread too) 

 

[Penguin]

Even a standard home power washer is capable of ablating concrete.. 

 

[Amy]

It's been tested and retested here in the US, and shown to be an old wive's tale that it "cuts the rope" or "pushes grit into the core". Of course, we do such things logically. Like I said you start it on low and gradually increase power until the dirt is coming off but go no higher. It's like the "dont tumble/spin ropes" people throw it in machines all the time, but you'd be best off not using a washer with a spindle!

Here's an example test. Pressure washing is prettymuch standard here now for getting nice clean rope.
http://caveworthy.blogspot.com/2009/05/pressure-washing-rope.html

Although you'll note the core is just as clean with the dirtiest and cleanest, so really it's in a way asthetics to clean rope, obviously it's easier on climbing and rappelling gear to be on clean rope. And my eyes, LOL.

 

[Mike Hopley]

One consideration that may not be immediately obvious:

Different regions have very different geology. This affects what type of particles are in cave mud. For example, mud in the Spanish Picos contains incredibly sharp, tiny quartz crystals that grind through descender spools (or even Crolls!) in just a few trips.

The results of pressure washing that kind of mud may differ from your kind of mud.

 

[graham]

years ago I washed both Beal 10.5 and gold with a pressure washer and they came up like new. I wish  I had cut them open to see the results. The rope didn't get cut and looked brand new .
My results were from trying it. All those making comments about it'll cut the rope or it forces grit and mud into the core, I take it you've also tried it have you .
I was told a man in a red suit sneaks into the house on December the 25th to leave presents. Now I don't want to burst anyones bubble but I don't think he doe :ras: :-\s.

We've all done stupid things & got away with them. I once climbed 60 m of electron ladder in hooked boots without a lifeline. Bloody stupid but got me back to the beer quicker than anyone else. I know people who have abseiled 40 m on hawser laid polyprop and lived to tell the tale. Doesn't mean these weren't stupid things to do and not to be recommended to others.

 

[Amy]

But it would be interesting to test nontheless, aye? Quartz crystals if it's that common the local cavers know about it. Heck there are caves here there is a weird sort of component where it chews through the ropes, the mud must have some kind of acid component because you can be deshething your rope just climbing out of the dang cave you just came down a few days ago on. Crazy shit! But, I think being able to deal with local differences or particular cave anomalies falls under "dont be stupid".

And, I would still be interested in a sample of muddy rope with those crystals to try it! You never know, rope is very different than metal being grinded down upon like a sander, it may well react differently than you'd think. I guess I"m more into the "experiment and try" especially when there is new evidence to suggest a change from old dogma. Many people seem happy to stick with dont pressure wash, which is fine it's your own rope, but in light of new evidence isn't anyone the least bit curious to take a meter or two of rope and repeat the test with your own local mud and rope? If not, perhaps you shouldn't "knock it until you try it".

 

[snoboy]

Who has a good pressure washer and a scrap of old rope? Can you do your best to cut it with the pressure washer intentionally? 

 

[Fulk]

Amy, How easy is it to pressure wash a long (say 100 m) rope to ensure that each cm is washed all the way round the circumference? And how long would it take?

 

[Mike Hopley]

I guess I"m more into the "experiment and try" especially when there is new evidence to suggest a change from old dogma.

Nothing wrong with that in general!

However, when dealing with life-support equipment, "new evidence" should be pretty strong before overturning well-established ideas from reputable sources. "I looked inside one rope in my backyard" ain't exactly compelling.

One might also ask: what is the benefit of pressure washing, compared to using a rope brush, and maybe a washing machine afterwards?

To put that another way: if you're right, what do you gain? And if you're wrong, what might you lose?*

*Nobody mention Pascal, please.

 

[graham]

To put that another way: if you're right, what do you gain? And if you're wrong, what might you lose?*

*Nobody mention Pascal, please.

Actually he was wrong about what you might lose, but I won't mention why.  8)

 

[Mike Hopley]

Actually he was wrong about what you might lose, but I won't mention why.  8)

Indeed -- and since that makes my argument less convincing, I shall pass quietly over it and hope no one notices.

 

[graham]

Actually he was wrong about what you might lose, but I won't mention why.  8)

Indeed -- and since that makes my argument less convincing, I shall pass quietly over it and hope no one notices.

There is nothing wrong, in fact quite the opposite, it is a good idea, to apply the precautionary principle. But that's not what the 'P' man was doing 'cos he didn't think it through properly.

 

[Mike Hopley]

There is nothing wrong, in fact quite the opposite, it is a good idea, to apply the precautionary principle. But that's not what the 'P' man was doing 'cos he didn't think it through properly.

Quite right! Note that I said "less convincing", not "less correct".

 

[graham]

Quite right! Note that I said "less convincing", not "less correct".

Good point well made.

However, I suspect we'd better let them have their thread back, now. 

 

[Gollum]

When I first started caving I was told washing ropes in a washing machine would damage ropes and yet now it appears half the cavers I know wash ropes in a washing machine. Yes pressure washers can damage concrete so why do car wash places use them to clean cars with there delicate paint work . It's crazy how some people still claim the world to be round when  we can clearly see it's flat (except the up and down hill bits).

I'm not saying we should pressure wash because I found it took a lot longer but lets not be telling people it's dangerous unless we we are sure. I had a whole caving club telling me I couldn't use a cavers butterfly because it was not safe but they could never actually provide any proof.

 

[Mike Hopley]

I had a whole caving club telling me I couldn't use a cavers butterfly because it was not safe but they could never actually provide any proof.

Hurrah -- another can of worms, but a different flavour!

The "Caver's butterfly" is more widely known as the False Butterfly, because it's considered a mistaken version of the Alpine Butterfly. It is a kind of slip knot. It has been suggested (Alpine Caving Techniques) that this knot be used as a shock absorber (e.g. in light rigging). I think this idea was found not to work, however.

You can see the slipping behaviour easily, just by pulling on the knot from different angles.

Like many "theoretically bad" knots, it's possible to use it safely. It's also possible to use it unsafely, in circumstances where the Alpine Butterfly would be safe.

Andy Sparrow champions it in his book. I'm not sure why -- you'd have to ask the man himself! Personally, I agree with your caving club; but I'm a bit anal about such things.

 

[damian]

Personally, I agree with your caving club; but I'm a bit anal about such things.

Personally I don't, but I'm not getting into why on this thread!

 

[cavermark]

...
I'm not saying we should pressure wash because I found it took a lot longer but lets not be telling people it's dangerous unless we we are sure. I had a whole caving club telling me I couldn't use a cavers butterfly because it was not safe but they could never actually provide any proof.

I think "let's not be telling people it's safe until we are sure" would be safer mantra...

 

[droid]

If in doubt, do nowt.