Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?

[Simon Wilson]

So all you keen wind puffers. How is it more of this energy is not channeled into trip reports , dig news and photographs ? Its a sad state of affairs now that UKC has become just a hotbed of argument.

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=18285.msg257968;topicseen#new

Any news from Reservoir Hole?

No but I could tell you about our project. It's on Leck Fell and apparently there's some sort of closed season or something. I don't know if that will mean there are fewer cars in the parking places but I doubt it. Anyway, whatever the closed season is it has nothing to do with access land which gives us all the access we need.

 

[bograt]

But NOPE Cornwall is completely different...and its TOTALLY down to the landowners...not eh Mine-Explorers...honest!

Impartial comment.

Cornwall is different to other areas in that the Duchy of Cornwall own most of the mineral rights, and therefore the mines.

And they're related to the duchy of Lancaster who allow BCRA to manage access to Peak Cavern.

 

[bograt]

I know of several caves now closed here in the SW purely because the landowners fear future loss of control over access to their property. Best to close it down now in case the site gets scheduled in some way or future access control is taken away from the landowner. Maybe it is a regional issue. We dont have many huge grouse moors down here. We have lots of private farmland with public rights of way. Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.

The subject of this debate is existing CRoW land, so access control has already been lost to the landowner, if it is private farm land then it is likely to be classed as 'improved land', so does not come within the remit of CRoW, this line of reasoning does not apply, maybe this should be pointed out to these landowners?

 

[bograt]

Opening new caves and digging are certainly being put at risk by this issue.

I suspect that it is not this issue that is putting the discovery of caves at risk, digging, etc. will still require landowners co-operation whether the decision is for or against.

 

[David Rose]

Enough airy-fair what-if speculation, already. The time has come to sort this issue out in court. Though if that happens, how will Peter Burgess ever fill his days?

 

[bograt]

Enough airy-fair what-if speculation, already. The time has come to sort this issue out in court. Though if that happens, how will Peter Burgess ever fill his days?

Steady on that one David, I feel there is still a lot of space for education and persuasion, Peter has already been debated into a corner (Quote - "I am not going to discuss this"). I await the next challenge!--

 

[Simon Wilson]

.. The time has come to sort this issue out in court.

I really don't think that will ever happen. There is a quiet revolution taking place which is slowly overwhelming this issue like the tide rising and dissolving a sandcastle. As more cavers realize that we have right of access and at the same time realize that the landowners are not the least bit bothered the issue will become irrelevant and be forgotten. Stop talking and just go caving.

 

[droid]

Wish I could see into the future with such clarity.....

 

[Kenilworth]

Stop talking and just go caving.

I've read these recent CROW threads with great interest. Very entertaining.

This is the first time one of them has turned sensible.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Yup, rightly jarred off and bored by the whole issue. Three caving trips next week thank God.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Ok let's make something clear. I have better things to do with my time than to answer complex questions with a simple "yes or no" answer, because it is not possible to do this. I will not be tied up in knots as some try to "debate me into a corner". What a ridiculous phrase. Ask simple questions if you want simple answers. The only reason I post on the access topics is to attempt a modicum of balance and to remind people that there are issues with what is being campaigned for that should not be ignored. I will not be intimidated by anybody into leaving the topic alone. If I have genuine concerns, then what is the problem with airing them? Pitlamp and Cookie appear to do much the same thing, in their own way. I do things my way. If you are offended then it isn't down to any attempt at offence on my part. Perhaps your own sensibilities need attention - I honestly don't know.

And I have spent today enjoying working for my club. Far better things to do, I am sure you all agree.

 

[menacer]

Wish I could see into the future with such clarity.....

Well if such crystall ball ever existed, we'd all know which party to vote for every 5 years and which way to vote re brexit..... at least we live in a democratic society where we can debate a choice rather than have it imposed...

 

[Madness]

Off topic but not really. The cave has just reopened for trip bookings.

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver!

 

[Aubrey]

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver!

Some caves are special and need special measures to conserve them.
- look at what happened in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink.

 

[NewStuff]

Booking a caving trip! It's about time we put an end to that palaver!

Some caves are special and need special measures to conserve them.
- look at what happened in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink.

But then you have the people that want to gate *everything* (There are/were a few on here). Some places *do* need gating, but they are very few and far between. If you gate up every single cave with a bit of stal in it, apart from a few token sacrificial caves, no-one is going anywhere without permission forms signed in triplicate or knowing the funny handshake that the gatekeepers prefer.

 

[jasonbirder]

Some caves are special and need special measures to conserve them.
- look at what happened in Hunters Lodge Inn Sink.

But look what happened there...you can never legislate against the stupid and/or the malicious...
A gate didn't deter people with malicious damage on their mind (whatever their motivation may have been) - educated and careful Cavers wouldn't have caused damage whether a gate was their or not...

 

[cap n chris]

How do you educate cavers who aren't in the loop?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Perhaps somebody could start an anti gate thread and tie up the forum for another 500 posts  :

 

[Peter Burgess]

People who are happy to be educated about this sort of thing would probably not cause the sort of damage seen in HLIS in the first place, with or without "education".

 

[NewStuff]

Perhaps somebody could start an anti gate thread and tie up the forum for another 500 posts  :

I'll have a go, but I'm not sure I can get to 500 posts, my attention span isn't that good, and there are far too many other threads vying for attention.

People who are happy to be educated about this sort of thing would probably not cause the sort of damage seen in HLIS in the first place, with or without "education".

Even if you gate every single hole in the ground on this island, you will get douchecanoes that are still going to cause damage. There's nothing anyone can do about it, you get them in *all* walks of life. It's sad, but it's true. Some people just want to watch the world burn. I think we can all agree these  people are fuckwits of the highest order.

The problem with legislating (gating) based on the lowest common denominator, that being the aforementioned douchecanoes/fuckwits, is that for the vast majority of cavers who wouldn't dream of doing anything like this, (irrespective or "pro" or "anti"), they now have to deal with all the bullshit that comes along with having a gate. To those determined to cause problems, damage etc, it's not going to make much, if any, difference. To those that want to explore caves and leave as little trace as possible, as the vast majority does, you now have a gate and the bureaucracy involved in getting through it.