Is a public CRoW campaign going to damage landowner relations?
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The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Of course there must be gates. Specifically to stop people sneaking drones into caves. :ang:
Peter Burgess
New member
Sometimes it is prudent to have to put up with inconvenience to protect the things we value. I wish I didn't have to have a lock on my front door or a house alarm system. But, hey ho, I think it's probably not a bad thing to have them, given that I could be burgled regardless of having these things, but I suspect it does minimise the risk. Likewise, museums tend to lock their doors when they are closed for very similar reasons. It would be great to be trusted to visit such places with irreplaceable items on display at any time I liked and without CCTV cameras and alarmed display cabinets to stop me touching them. But I think, on balance, security measures are a good thing, even though they are somewhat inconvenient at times.
Wayland Smith
Active member
The Old Ruminator said:
Don't forget unicycles.
The Old Ruminator
Well-known member
Only if a unicycle can be classed as " a potentially dangerous vehicle ". Off topic but perhaps a little levity is due.
My local playing field has a notice saying. " No Golf or Motorcycles ". A Chieftain tank running amok is OK then ?
My local playing field has a notice saying. " No Golf or Motorcycles ". A Chieftain tank running amok is OK then ?
NewStuff
New member
Peter Burgess said:
You are comparing apples to oranges as well you know. Caves are not Museums or Homes.
However, let's humour your argument for a minute. Should things go your way, I suspect that caving as a hobby will pretty much die, or gates will have a very short lifespan, quite possibly both.
Peter Burgess
New member
"My way" is to simply leave things pretty much as they are. That's worked for decades and will work for decades more.
jasonbirder
Member
Thankfully we don't have to cave in Harris Tweeds dragging bundles of Rope and wooden rung ladders behind us anymore...things have changed...FOR THE BETTER
Hopefully we can look forward to things changing for THE BETTER on access too...and many Cavers will no longer be denied access to the wonders of the Underground for various trivial bureaucratic bullsh*t reasons too...
To be honest you will always get some arsehole wrecking things for everyone else , but then again you'll always get power trip arseholes who want to (own)/ lock up things that clearly do not belong to them . When climbers/ mountaineers discover a new / wall or mountain they don't then try to lock it away or stop other people climbing ( their ) mountain ,
Ramblers are cutting massive scars over the Dales as we speak should they be banned from walking ! ?
Ramblers are cutting massive scars over the Dales as we speak should they be banned from walking ! ?
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
I personally would be in favour, if it proves necessary, to change the CROW act to include caving alongside walking, climbing and other equivalent 'outdoor' activities. If such a change in the law did happen, this would no doubt not take effect immediately but be delayed to allow landowners/caving bodies/local authorities etc time to implement restrictions (allowed by the CROW act) for conservation reasons. I could be wrong but I think gates and leaders could continue - but only where proven to be justified?
Consider the following hypothetical situation though:
I choose a nice pretty Mendips cave on CROW land, currently leader-led and access controlled through the landowner. I write to the access body and demand the entrance is removed under CROW rights. They obviously tell me to get lost. I pick any lock, open the gate and enter the cave. Assume I have not damaged the gate in the process (so no criminal damage) but have 'opened' the cave.
Have I committed a crime/committed trespass? Can I be prevented (legally) from entering the cave? If the gate is beefed up and I go to court to have to removed as an obstruction, what happens?
In order to avoid this situation it is necessary to find out in court, once and for all, whether CROW applies to caving - only then can the appropriate protections for caves be put in place. Clarity of the _current_ situation would, I think, be to everyone's advantage.
Consider the following hypothetical situation though:
I choose a nice pretty Mendips cave on CROW land, currently leader-led and access controlled through the landowner. I write to the access body and demand the entrance is removed under CROW rights. They obviously tell me to get lost. I pick any lock, open the gate and enter the cave. Assume I have not damaged the gate in the process (so no criminal damage) but have 'opened' the cave.
Have I committed a crime/committed trespass? Can I be prevented (legally) from entering the cave? If the gate is beefed up and I go to court to have to removed as an obstruction, what happens?
In order to avoid this situation it is necessary to find out in court, once and for all, whether CROW applies to caving - only then can the appropriate protections for caves be put in place. Clarity of the _current_ situation would, I think, be to everyone's advantage.
Simon Wilson
New member
andrewmcleod said:
For the millionth time, We do not want to change the CRoW Act. Caves are included and DEFRA have acknowledged that. We want DEFRA to cease with what we see as their nonsensical claim that there is a limit on the distance you can go into a cave.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Simon Wilson said:
Like I said, _if_ it proves necessary
(I personally agree with your argument and agree the current position taken by NE/DEFRA is stupid, but wouldn't put money on anything until there is a court case, and even that may not be definitive/binding...)
Peter Burgess
New member
Those who have been gagging for an example of a real landowner publicly expressing concerns please go and buy the latest Descent and turn to the letters pages.
Martin Laverty
Member
Peter Burgess said:
I think this must be a reference to a letter from the Association of British and Irish Showcaves which appears in the News pages, not the letter(s) page. I can't think of any showcaves with entrances in CRoW land, although a couple do extend under it...
There are better reasons for buying this issue of Descent, though.
Peter Burgess
New member
Yes, sorry, it's under news.
