Peter Burgess
New member
That's the same as lime putty - which will convert to calcium carbonate relatively quickly by absorbing carbon dioxide. Lime mortar goes off by way of this reaction in a matter of a few weeks, if that.
Is carbide really dead? nostalgic yearnings from an LED user...
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martinm
New member
Cap'n Chris said:
What a fantastic document Cap'n, thanx for that.
(Now saved to HD.) SC Avalon, Belgium really have got it sussed...The White River Series in Peak is gradually getting trashed/muddied (choose your word) by cavers doing the through trip without due care and attention, even crossing tapes for whatever reason.
There is a conservation plan for it, though I don't know of the current state of play with regards to the cleanup that was supposed to being done up there. Must find out...
Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.
Quote from Peter Burgess:
I suspect that the surface of a pile of spent carbide could well convert to calcium carbonate fairly quickly, but under the surface I would imagine that the reaction would not be so fast.
As for spent carbide being inert ? I knew somebody who was tipping out spent carbide into a cave, but unbeknown to him, he tipped some down inside his welly; several hours later when he was getting changed he discovered a nasty alkali burn on his leg (or foot, I forget which ? maybe both) . . . maybe poetic justice.
And yes, alkaline cells can leak; I recently changed some in an object (sensor) that just sits on a shelf and doesn't get battered about underground. When changing batteries I noticed the 'slippery, greasy' feel typical of alkali in the battery compartment.
I suspect that the surface of a pile of spent carbide could well convert to calcium carbonate fairly quickly, but under the surface I would imagine that the reaction would not be so fast.
As for spent carbide being inert ? I knew somebody who was tipping out spent carbide into a cave, but unbeknown to him, he tipped some down inside his welly; several hours later when he was getting changed he discovered a nasty alkali burn on his leg (or foot, I forget which ? maybe both) . . . maybe poetic justice.
And yes, alkaline cells can leak; I recently changed some in an object (sensor) that just sits on a shelf and doesn't get battered about underground. When changing batteries I noticed the 'slippery, greasy' feel typical of alkali in the battery compartment.
nickwilliams
Well-known member
The fact that is stinks is a pretty good indicator that it contains more nasties than just calcium hydroxide, even if only in small concentrations.
More significantly, ISTR Pitlamp mentioning that spent carbide used to be identifiable in sumps in some caves. It can't do any good to the water borne fauna.
More significantly, ISTR Pitlamp mentioning that spent carbide used to be identifiable in sumps in some caves. It can't do any good to the water borne fauna.
Peter Burgess
New member
I beleive it contains suplhur and phosphorus compounds. I believe the carbide smell some people love so much is the result of such impurities. Lovely.
martinm
New member
Peter Burgess said:
From Wikipedia:-
"The pure material is colorless, however pieces of technical-grade calcium carbide are grey or brown and consist of about 80?85% of CaC2 (the rest is CaO (calcium oxide), Ca3P2 (calcium phosphide), CaS (calcium sulfide), Ca3N2 (calcium nitride), SiC (silicon carbide), etc.). Because of presence of PH3 (phosphine), NH3 (ammonia), and H2S (hydrogen sulfide), the smell of technical-grade calcium carbide is part of the process or production and is produced intentionally to be unpleasant in larger concentrations, and noticeable in smaller ones, as a part of warning system for unwanted leaks, fires or explosion."
Yes, it does indeed appear to have some nasties in it, some of them pretty dangerous, eg:- phosphine and ammonia ... hmm. Don't use it!
Peter Burgess
New member
Yes and long exposure clearly resutls in lon-term problems with spelling and typing.....
Les W said:
And resutls.
It's a wonder anyone from my generation has survived. Cigarette smoke, strontium 90, lead/mercury fillings, lead pipes, asbestos, all sorts of nasties from the coal ash that my gran used to put on the rhubarb patch, oxalic acid, soot, collapsing burning slag heaps and now I find that the list also includes phosphine and ammonia. Thankfully, my carbide lamp has long been nothing more than an ornament.
Peter Burgess
New member
You missed suplhur and beleive - clearly it affects the ability to read as well!
Leclused
Active member
mmilner said:Cap'n Chris said:
What a fantastic document Cap'n, thanx for that.
The White River Series in Peak is gradually getting trashed/muddied (choose your word) by cavers doing the through trip without due care and attention, even crossing tapes for whatever reason.
There is a conservation plan for it, though I don't know of the current state of play with regards to the cleanup that was supposed to being done up there. Must find out...
Regards Mel. DCA Conservation Officer.
Hi,
As a member of SC Avalon I'm pleased to see that Paul's document is still used as a reference
This said : Take a look at the following video
This video is showing soot deposites in caves and how they can be removed in some situations.https://sites.google.com/site/speleovig/Environnement/operation-mr-propre-a-ste-anne
This action took place in 2012 in a combined effort of cavers from different Belgian clubs
BR
Dagobert L'Ecluse (Sc Avalon - Belgium)
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://www.scavalon.be
martinm
New member
Leclused said:Hi, As a member of SC Avalon I'm pleased to see that Paul's document is still used as a reference
This said : Take a look at the following video
https://sites.google.com/site/speleovig/Environnement/operation-mr-propre-a-ste-anne
This action took place in 2012 in a combined effort of cavers from different Belgian clubs
BR
Dagobert L'Ecluse (Sc Avalon - Belgium)
http://scavalon.blogspot.com
http://www.scavalon.be
Nice one. Yeah, I've been using water spraying kit to clean stal too. (See my profile photo, from the BBC program Countryfile from a few years ago!) Can be very effective, if the soot or mud hasn't been covered with newly deposited flowstone. (It can happen quite quickly, depending on deposition rates.)
Regards, Mel.
mrodoc
Well-known member
Back in my youth we used to write with carbide lamps on cave walls :-[. What I have observed is that the soot disappears even if new flowstone is not being deposited (so you won't find my signature anywhere underground). I presume this is bacterial action but is particularly noticeable in Pridhamsleigh Cavern where the carbide graffiti near the lake have virtually gone. Sadly mud balls hurled at the walls don't show the same propensity for decomposition.
Peter Burgess
New member
There are carbide scribblings on the walls of Surrey mines dating back to the 1960s as clear today as the day they were made. The only way carbon is going to disappear is if it is physically removed or covered in something else. It is not going to dissolve away or evaporate!
bograt
Active member
Oh, come on, how can you tell whether its carbide from 50 years ago or candle from 150 years ago? I've seen both underground, sometimes in the same place. The cave environment decides if it should stay, be very sure if you decide if it should stay or go, it might be the original explorers traces you are destroying.
graham
New member
bograt said:
Well, in part one can use that which is written as a guide. "Pete Burgess wos 'ere march 25th 1962" is quite probably an inscription that was not made by a candle in the 1860s.
However, you make a valid point about traces of original explorers. This is a hard one, in some part, as in preserving such traces one is arguably accepting behaviour that would not be acceptable today.
The US, or so I believe, use a rolling fifty year limit to arbitrate between preservation and removal. That seems to me fairly reasonable.
