Is carbide really dead? nostalgic yearnings from an LED user...

[bograt]

Who is qualified to decide?

 

[graham]

Who is qualified to decide?

Me. of course. or in the case of C14 dating Tom Higham in the dating lab in Oxford.

 

[cap n chris]

Sadly mud balls hurled at the walls don't show the same propensity for decomposition.

For a few years now I've been thinking it should be (admittedly with some degree of organisation and labour) possible to get a pressure washer and allied power cabling running in Pridhamsleigh Cavern utilising the lake as a water source to wash the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mud ball splats off the otherwise attractive walls. It should work a treat.

I think it might be best organised by local cavers rather than being out-sourced to those of us based further afield though. Once done it would also be a plan to try and nip in the bud the ridiculous fad of mud slinging that clearly is a commonplace there (and elsewhere - Mud balls around Tratman's Temple, FFS).

 

[mrodoc]

I stand by my personal observations. The fact that soot marks remain in some places does not mean that they don't fade in others. I have photographic evidence of this.

 

[graham]

I stand by my personal observations. The fact that soot marks remain in some places does not mean that they don't fade in others. I have photographic evidence of this.

So are you encouraging the graffiti artist or vandal who will say "no harm done, it'll evaporate in a couple of years?"

 

[Leclused]

I stand by my personal observations. The fact that soot marks remain in some places does not mean that they don't fade in others. I have photographic evidence of this.

IMO there are several kinds of soot pollution in caves

- The soot marks from the ceiling burners
- The soot grafitti  (historical / real grafitti / exploration arrows  / ...)
- The soot deposit by soot particls that travel through the air

The 3 kind of pollution need be approached/handled in different ways. In the case of grafitti there is the historical value that has to be taken in account

So before you start a clean-up make a plan and decide what your are going to clean and how (pressure water / spray cans  / brush )

In the Saint-Anne cleaning (see clip above)  it was the 3rd kind of pollution that we removed. In this case the pollution was not only the result of carbid flames but also the result of the earliest touristic visits with torches/candles/ mining lamps /....


@Chris : If you need info about the technical set-up we used in the Saint-Anne please let me know. There are some handy tricks and tips

BR

Dagobert (SC Avalon)

 

[graham]

So before you start a clean-up make a plan and decide what your are going to clean and how

Add why to the what and how and this becomes the most important thing to do in absolutely any conservation inspired scenario from cleaning graffiti from a wall to changing the hydrological regime of Lathkill Dale.

 

[Peter Burgess]

What isotope of elemental carbon are we talking about here, that evaporates in ambient conditions, or dissolves in water, or is the substrate for some weird form of fungus or bacterium? Has anyone told the Royal Society of Chemistry? Should we be concerned?

 

[zippy]

As an aside, or maybe not, if you're after a softer, more "yellow" light as per carbide or tungsten filament, but want the benefits of LEDs it is possible to have the "best" of both worlds!

When we got these in as samples I really wasn't sure where the market was.  Some people hate them, but actually I've grown very fond of caving on one of these:

http://ledcavinglamp.co.uk/KL8Mcaplampstandard-warmLEDverison-andNWB-25dualinputsmartfast-chargermultiitembundle.aspx

(And subsequently, you'll find them in use at places like http://www.killhope.org.uk/Pages/KillhopeHomePage.aspx and http://www.stockport.gov.uk/services/leisureculture/visitstockport/museumsandgalleries/airraidshelters/, both of which are deserving ventures if you fancy being touristy at any point!)

(I will confess that I do have a vested interest in this)

 

[Pitlamp]

Sadly mud balls hurled at the walls don't show the same propensity for decomposition.

For a few years now I've been thinking it should be (admittedly with some degree of organisation and labour) possible to get a pressure washer and allied power cabling running in Pridhamsleigh Cavern utilising the lake as a water source to wash the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of mud ball splats off the otherwise attractive walls. It should work a treat.

I think it might be best organised by local cavers rather than being out-sourced to those of us based further afield though. Once done it would also be a plan to try and nip in the bud the ridiculous fad of mud slinging that clearly is a commonplace there (and elsewhere - Mud balls around Tratman's Temple, FFS).

Chris makes some excellent points here - but - let's just be a bit careful. Pressure washing mud off the walls might make the wall nice and clean but consider where that fine sediment will go to. I'm not familiar with Prid but, if it would end up in the Lake, it may then influence diving conditions in the part that most cavers don't see.

These mud balls presumably have a high clay content. Clay minerals behave in strange ways; once they're stuck together they tend to remain pretty well stuck together (for reasons of their chemistry, which I'll not go into here). However, pressure washing has the potential to separate these very tiny clay particles. Once separated, even a relatively small blob of mud can produce vast numbers of these tiny particles, which will eventually settle underwater on any horizontal or sloping surface. The slightest disturbance from a gentle fin waft or passing exhaust bubbles will then disturb this fine sediment and quickly reduce the visibility. From what I've read about the underwater part of the Lake, it offers a very special experience for cave divers; let's not do anything to detract from that folks!

The general feeling amongst cavers is that streamways tend to remain lovely and clean because any litter / mud / other unwanted material gets "washed away". But it must go somewhere else in the cave. Just because that "somewhere else" isn't so obvious doesn't mean it's any less important a problem. I've probably mentioned this elsewhere before on this forum but the best example of the above is perhaps the (west) Kingsdale Master Cave. The streamway is beautifully formed with clean scalloped walls. But if you go into the downstream sump it's full of all sorts of junk. There must be an awful lot of folk hop out of Valley Entrance minus a boiler suit and with only one welly on!

 

[Peter Burgess]

What isotope of elemental carbon are we talking about here, that evaporates in ambient conditions, or dissolves in water, or is the substrate for some weird form of fungus or bacterium? Has anyone told the Royal Society of Chemistry? Should we be concerned?

To satisfy the pedantic scientists, I should of course have used the phrase allotrope of carbon, not isotope. Just so you know. 

 

[ttxela]

I've never used a carbide lamp underground but I do recall that one of the shops at Bisley camp used to sell purpose made miniature carbide lamps used to generate soot for temporarily blacking gun sights. I guess that the use of carbide for this purpose is no accident and it must be particularly good at generating soot (as opposed to say, oil)?

 

[topcat]

I've never used a carbide lamp underground but I do recall that one of the shops at Bisley camp used to sell purpose made miniature carbide lamps used to generate soot for temporarily blacking gun sights. I guess that the use of carbide for this purpose is no accident and it must be particularly good at generating soot (as opposed to say, oil)?

I still have one of those mini 'lights' which we used to black pistol sights: it was very effective!