Is the BCA anchor scheme working as well as it could be?

[Simon Wilson]

Can someone give me an idea of the scale of the work facing installers in other regions. How many caves are there in the DCA region that are waiting to have anchors installed and roughly how many anchors might that entail? And the same for other regions. Don't assume I have any knowledge of regions other than the North.

The person to ask in Derbyshire is Bob Dearman, DCA's Equipment Officer.  He has all the DCA records and they will be in similar format to the northern ones: cave, location, date, installer, resin, etc.

Jenny Potts,
DCA Hon. Sec.

I don't want any information about anchors already installed. Perhaps I need to explain it another way.

In the Dales we have a substantial to-do list. That is a list of caves that don't have resin anchors but which are in need of anchors. I'm wondering about to-do lists in other regions.

 

[JB]

I've been installing anchors in Derbyshire for DCA for around eight years. Since the BP anchor was introduced I have always been concerned about the fact that they cannot be removed and replaced in the same hole without trashing the rock on removal. I did email Jim Titt about a year ago for some information about what technique he recommended for removing BP anchors but never received a reply.

My concerns are practical. Looking at the DCA anchor records there are tens of DMM eco anchors which have been removed and replaced in Derbyshire over the years as they were loose. I have replaced quite a few myself and removing them without damaging the surrounding the rock was relatively easy to be honest.

I believe this is not possible with BP anchors. I am not inclined to install BP anchors at the moment as I can see a right mess stacking up some years down the line at pitch-heads. As Simon aludes to above I am not saying it is not possible but I have not seen, and nobody has told me of a way that it can be done without damaging the rock around the placement.

I started a bit of a paper exercise to look at commercially available alternatives around a year ago (that can be removed without damaging the rock) but my partner had our daughter soon after and I will need to leave that sort of research to someone with considerably more time. It is interesting and will be a MASSIVELY useful service to the caving community if an anchor and removal technique can be found. Personally I like Petzl Collinox anchors (but the BCA have stipulated must be 316). I'd like them a bit more if they were a bit longer.

Simon - I think it is right that I make the point that your IC anchors are not available to other regions as I know they take you a long time to make and you're not doing it commercially. In Derbyshire the BP anchor has been the only option since 2013.

Cheers,

Jules.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is interesting and will be a MASSIVELY useful service to the caving community if an anchor and removal technique can be found.

You say massively useful but just how massive is massively useful? Is it MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY or MASSIVELY?

 

[Bob Mehew]

E&T have in hand some work hopefully to be completed over the next month or so over looking at removal of the BP 8mm rod twisted shaft anchor which does not destroy the location and that we can reuse the location albeit with a larger hole.  There is also a piece of work underway looking at commercial alternatives to the BP 8mm rod twisted shaft anchor which will specifically checking that they can be extracted without loosing the location.  I will acknowledge Simon's significant contribution to the topic in identifying that one should not go for the strongest anchor, rather one which balances competing features including strength, replacement, wear and corrosion resistance.
     

 

[rhychydwr1]

no

 

[Simon Wilson]

no

Why? In what way? How could it be improved?

 

[JB]

It is interesting and will be a MASSIVELY useful service to the caving community if an anchor and removal technique can be found.

You say massively useful but just how massive is massively useful? Is it MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY or MASSIVELY?

The biggest one as far as I'm concerned!

 

[JB]

E&T have in hand some work hopefully to be completed over the next month or so over looking at removal of the BP 8mm rod twisted shaft anchor which does not destroy the location and that we can reuse the location albeit with a larger hole.  There is also a piece of work underway looking at commercial alternatives to the BP 8mm rod twisted shaft anchor which will specifically checking that they can be extracted without loosing the location.  I will acknowledge Simon's significant contribution to the topic in identifying that one should not go for the strongest anchor, rather one which balances competing features including strength, replacement, wear and corrosion resistance.
   

Bob - this is fantastic to hear. I've seen your email about loose anchors in Derbyshire. I'll reply tomorrow when I'll get chance to sift through.

Jules.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It is interesting and will be a MASSIVELY useful service to the caving community if an anchor and removal technique can be found.

You say massively useful but just how massive is massively useful? Is it MASSIVELY, MASSIVELY or MASSIVELY?

The biggest one as far as I'm concerned!

Actually, I'm being serious. I get the impression there isn't much demand for anchors in other regions.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I've been installing anchors in Derbyshire for DCA for around eight years. Since the BP anchor was introduced I have always been concerned about the fact that they cannot be removed and replaced in the same hole without trashing the rock on removal. I did email Jim Titt about a year ago for some information about what technique he recommended for removing BP anchors but never received a reply.

There is a description on the Bolt Products website. It is rather involved though and probably impractical.

My concerns are practical. Looking at the DCA anchor records there are tens of DMM eco anchors which have been removed and replaced in Derbyshire over the years as they were loose. I have replaced quite a few myself and removing them without damaging the surrounding the rock was relatively easy to be honest.

Had the resin failed? Jim Titt has said that a BP anchor with failed resin will not damage the rock when pulled.

I think comparing failed Eco anchors to BP anchors that have not failed is perhaps not the best comparison. It may be that the issue of damaging the rock pulling a good BP anchor is not important because you would never be pulling a good BP anchor.

Just something to consider, anyway. Plus BP do make more conventional welded head resin anchors in 316.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Actually, I'm being serious. I get the impression there isn't much demand for anchors in other regions.

I counted about 120-something anchors on the CSCC anchor page which isn't really that many. That could probably at least double if more caves with spits were bolted or revolted, but still not lots.

 

[Les W]

I counted about 120-something anchors on the CSCC anchor page which isn't really that many. That could probably at least double if more caves with spits were bolted or revolted, but still not lots.

Which other caves have spits? apart from Rhino Right Hand rote?  :-\

 

[mikem]

Twin verts in Eastwater.

Mike

 

[JB]

There is a description on the Bolt Products website. It is rather involved though and probably impractical.

Yes.  I don't like the idea of trying to cut a SS anchor in a cave (even with a dust mask on). Can you core drill a big enough hole with a cordless drill - I don't know? What size hole would you end up with? It would be smooth so would need finishing with a hammer drill bit. Like you say I don't think this is a solution for us.

Had the resin failed? Jim Titt has said that a BP anchor with failed resin will not damage the rock when pulled.

I think comparing failed Eco anchors to BP anchors that have not failed is perhaps not the best comparison. It may be that the issue of damaging the rock pulling a good BP anchor is not important because you would never be pulling a good BP anchor.

Just something to consider, anyway. Plus BP do make more conventional welded head resin anchors in 316.

Eco anchors with failed resin don't come out easily without removing a significant proportion of the resin (possible with DMM eco anchors - not possible with BP anchors).

It's interesting that Jim Titt has said that BP anchors with failed resin do not damage the rock when pulled. I'd like to see a bit more info on this. Do you know what he uses to pull them? I'm happy using the fixing tester to pull after substantially weakening the resin by drilling it out (a la DMM eco anchors) but I'm not happy trying to drag out a BP anchor that's moving a bit with a calibrated device that isn't made for the job. It may be that Simon Wilson's ingeneous puller will drag them out without damaging the rock but I would like to know rather than assuming this will work.

 

[Simon Wilson]

It's interesting that Jim Titt has said that BP anchors with failed resin do not damage the rock when pulled. I'd like to see a bit more info on this. Do you know what he uses to pull them? I'm happy using the fixing tester to pull after substantially weakening the resin by drilling it out (a la DMM eco anchors) but I'm not happy trying to drag out a BP anchor that's moving a bit with a calibrated device that isn't made for the job. It may be that Simon Wilson's ingeneous puller will drag them out without damaging the rock but I would like to know rather than assuming this will work.

An earlier version of Simon Wilson's ingenious puller has been used to pull out one BP resin anchor, the rock was pulverised and I haven't tried it since. Where on the BP website does it describe how to remove BP anchors? It seems to be well hidden.

 

[Simon Wilson]

I'm happy using the fixing tester to pull after substantially weakening the resin by drilling it out

What is a 'fixing tester'?

 

[JB]

I'm happy using the fixing tester to pull after substantially weakening the resin by drilling it out

What is a 'fixing tester'?

Sorry - hydrajaws I meant.

 

[JB]

An earlier version of Simon Wilson's ingenious puller has been used to pull out one BP resin anchor, the rock was pulverised and I haven't tried it since. Where on the BP website does it describe how to remove BP anchors? It seems to be well hidden.

There was definitely info on there at one stage about cutting the eye off and core drilling around the anchor to remove it. I seem to remember it was couched more in terms of 'if you need to remove an anchor - any anchor' rather than how to remove a BP anchor. I remember thinking at the time it wasn't a realistic approach for us and that's why I emailed him specifically about removing BP anchors.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Right.    There is information on the BP website about removing several types of anchor but it does not include how to remove BP anchors.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Right.    There is information on the BP website about removing several types of anchor but it does not include how to remove BP anchors.

I read the core drilling technique as being suitable for removing BP anchors (I can't see why it wouldn't be, they claim to stock 16mm / 5/8" core drills). If of course you consider the method suitable at all for underground use - it involves a fair amount of kit, including water cooling of the diamond core drill...

Melting might be worth trying, given that it apparently worked well with epoxy...
The Titanium bolt people also suggest melting (they recommend Hilti HIT RE-500 epoxy):
http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titanium%20climbing%20bolt%20installation%20guide.html