New resin anchor website

[Simon Wilson]

Fine. You've publicised the website. Now no slanging matches from anyone and ask any questions via PM.

Thanks. I'm giving a lot more than I'm asking for.

 

[caveTER]

I would like to ask why you think your anchor is better than the current resin anchors in wide use throughout the dales and other areas which have been heavily tested and proven over 30 odd years?

If they are not better in some way then what is the purpose? Why not put your efforts into helping test/install the current anchors which are provided at no cost?

It just seems like re-inventing the wheel to me. In such a small community as caving surly it's better to pool efforts and work together.

 

[martinm]

I would like to ask why you think your anchor is better than the current resin anchors in wide use throughout the dales and other areas which have been heavily tested and proven over 30 odd years?

If they are not better in some way then what is the purpose? Why not put your efforts into helping test/install the current anchors which are provided at no cost?

Hi caveTER.

Re:- 2nd point fair comment, but I think it may be a research project and as Simon says aren't currently for sale. The page below gives some excellent info on the various resin bolt types with photos:-

http://resinanchor.co.uk/2.html

re:- first comment:- the anchors currently being installed are BP anchors and have only been in use for a short time, not 30 years. I am sure they are fine. But you are thinking about the old P-Bolts/Eco-Anchors which I believe were made by DMM.

Then of course there are newer bolts which are being from Titanium and which appear to stand up to hostile environments better than the current stainless ones and are claimed to have a lifespan of around 50 years:-

http://www.titanclimbing.com/Titan ...ts were outside on crags in tropical areas...

 

[Cave_Troll]

"After DMM ceased making the ECO Hanger new installations all but stopped and the BCA looked for an alternative. Cavers became frustrated by the delay in finding a suitable alternative and an increasing number of resin anchors of other commercially available designs have been installed in caves by anonymous installers."

So this is now fixed and we have a new anchor which is being installed.
So whats the problem and why do we need another type of anchor installed by what may appear to be another bunch of "anonymous installers"

 

[Bottlebank]

"After DMM ceased making the ECO Hanger new installations all but stopped and the BCA looked for an alternative. Cavers became frustrated by the delay in finding a suitable alternative and an increasing number of resin anchors of other commercially available designs have been installed in caves by anonymous installers."

So this is now fixed and we have a new anchor which is being installed.
So whats the problem and why do we need another type of anchor installed by what may appear to be another bunch of "anonymous installers"

Simon and I are not on talking terms, at least he doesn't appear to be talking to me, however I do know a little about the work he's been doing.

It seems his new anchor may well represent a step forward in anchor technology, apparently they may address/resolve a couple of problems, one of which I think Simon may have been the first person to recognise.

So to answer your question it could be that one day an anchor based on Simon's work will be manufactured and may offer a safer or stronger anchor for future projects.

As such this seems something worth pursuing, so it would be interesting to hear (in laymans terms) from Simon a little more about the improvements he's identified?

 

[SamT]

What CT said.

I'm not adverse to Simons new bolt being adopted by CNCC/BCA/DCA etc if it proves to have significant advantages over the BP bolt, subject to the rigorous testing etc that the BP bolt has been put through.

It has always, as far as Im aware, been a criteria of the BCA/CNCC/DCA installed bolts that they look very similar to the originals so that they can easily be identified as having been installed under the scheme and thus be trusted (subject to the normal common sense tests that all cavers perform when clipping bolts).

It seems simons bolt will be quite uniquely identifiable, but, unlike the BP bolt, will look different to the DMM and BP bolts already installed under the scheme.

I think the fact that simon is taking the time and effort to develop this bolt for the good of the caving community is commendable, but I cant help but think he's missed the boat so to speak, given that the BP bolt has been decided upon, purchased and is currently being installed under the scheme.

 

[Bottlebank]

What CT said.

I'm not adverse to Simons new bolt being adopted by CNCC/BCA/DCA etc if it proves to have significant advantages over the BP bolt, subject to the rigorous testing etc that the BP bolt has been put through.

It has always, as far as Im aware, been a criteria of the BCA/CNCC/DCA installed bolts that they look very similar to the originals so that they can easily be identified as having been installed under the scheme and thus be trusted (subject to the normal common sense tests that all cavers perform when clipping bolts).

It seems simons bolt will be quite uniquely identifiable, but, unlike the BP bolt, will look different to the DMM and BP bolts already installed under the scheme.

I think the fact that simon is taking the time and effort to develop this bolt for the good of the caving community is commendable, but I cant help but think he's missed the boat so to speak, given that the BP bolt has been decided upon, purchased and is currently being installed under the scheme.

Bolts aren't just used in caves, there's a fair sized market for them, I've no idea whether Simon plans to market these but there's certainly potential there.

 

[SamT]

I know, I install bolts for sport climbs in the peak too.

Didn't simon mention above that these bolts weren't for sale.

The major advantage of BP bolts (and others) for climbers is they can lower off a single bolt by threading it should they be unable to finish the climb and reach the lower off bolts. (without having to leave a krab behind as you would if on a plate hanger.

Not sure this is the case with simons bolts, depends on how smooth a radius there is in the eye.

 

[Madness]

Given that an anchor could be used by cavers, climbers, the construction industry etc. I would have thought that someone would develope a hot forged stainless anchor similar to the Petzl. In fact there are already companies producing forged stainless eye bolts who might even have suitable dies/tooling. Given a large enough production run I suspect it would be economically viable.

 

[Simon Wilson]

Given that an anchor could be used by cavers, climbers, the construction industry etc. I would have thought that someone would develope a hot forged stainless anchor similar to the Petzl. In fact there are already companies producing forged stainless eye bolts who might even have suitable dies/tooling. Given a large enough production run I suspect it would be economically viable.

Thanks Mick,
I agree forging is the best production method. I have a design for an advanced forged anchor. If someone wants to throw several thousand pounds into it we could make the ultimate anchor.

 

[Bottlebank]

Maybe this sheds a bit more light on this:

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment_techniques:signed_minutes_e_t_050414.pdf

Before anyone accuses me of going too nerdy I was pointed in the right direction by someone who does understand this stuff - section 16 seems to be the relevant bit.

 

[bograt]

Maybe this sheds a bit more light on this:

http://british-caving.org.uk/wiki3/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=equipment_techniques:signed_minutes_e_t_050414.pdf

Before anyone accuses me of going too nerdy I was pointed in the right direction by someone who does understand this stuff - section 16 seems to be the relevant bit.

Thanks for that link Bottlebank, it certainly makes it more clear where the initiative came from.

Looking at the test results for both BP and SW(?) anchors, there is no reason why BCA cannot approve both for installation, questions to be asked are;

1. Is the same resin suitable for both?

2. Is there any difference in installing them i.e. do the 'qualified installers' need to learn different techniques?, or use different equipment (drill bits, etc.)

3. How will users identify approved bolts against those not approved? (Hammerite maybe?)

4. Is there, or how soon can there be, a consistant production / quality control regime for the SW product?

5. Comparative pricing.(versus performance)


One thing that has always concerns me is that the approved tests appear to be all about how the anchor comes out of the rock, i.e. longitudinal strength along the shank of the anchor and resin, are there any tests done latitudinal, i.e. when the anchor is fixed in a vertical wall and the pull is sideways when you hang on it ? (I realise that this was hinted upon when someone refered to the grain of the metal earlier, but was not answered to my satisfaction).

Another quality control test that could prove beneficial would be an abrasion test to determine how the anchors perform having gritty ropes pulled through them, I know its not supposed to happen, but it has been indicated many times on this forum that some cavers are difficult to educate!.

Sorry about the waffle, but I have a history in research and QC.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

IIRC Bob Mehew suggests that something like 12kN force developed in a fall will kill you or cause serious harm. Even if you put an Engineer's hat on and multiply this by 3 just to be "safe" it is still a small force in relation to the strength of the material in the bolt. So I suspect this is why tests focus on pull-out strength rather than failure of the bolt at the neck.

The big unknown though is the bulk rock strength which is something that seems to enter my head when committing to two bolts close together on the same wall for a pull through.

 

[Simon Wilson]

The website has been revised and enlarged.            http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/index.html

I have added a new page about resins.                http://www.resinanchor.co.uk/4.html

Work on the project continues.

Simon.

 

[Mark Wright]

Just to add to the posts by TheBitterEnd and Bograt,

Industrial anchor bolts conforming to EN795 and installed in accordance with BSEN7883 are tested initially with a 12kN force in the direction of intended use for 3 minutes. This will usually be in 'Shear'. This test is carried out to determine the substrate strength and the bolt would be scrapped after the test due to it being overloaded. All subsequent bolts in the same substrate would be tested with an 'Axial' 6kN force for 15 seconds.

Where the bolts are to be used for 'Fall Arrest' purposes, i.e. where the bolt is not loaded in normal use, then the 'Axial' test should be carried out annually. Where the bolt is to be used for work positioning, i.e. loaded in normal use, then this same test should be carried out every 6 months. In an industrial environment the 'Axial' testing used to be carried out to a 5% sample of all the bolts installed on a building or structure however this requirement was later changed to ALL the installed bolts as it was not considered to be safe enough just to test a small 5% sample.

The maximum force allowable on a body in a work situation is 6kN whereas the maximum force allowable on a body in a sporting situation is 12kN. There is no guarantee that a person would survive a 12kN force which is why most dynamic climbing ropes reduce impact force of an 80kg mass taking a Fall Factor 1.78 (EN892 test criteria) to around 10kN or less.

Putting on an engineers hat, the Factor Of Safety (FOS) applied in a 'Fall Arrest' situation is 2:1 whereas in a 'Work Positioning' situation a 2.5:1 FOS is used which is why in the industrial rope access environment two EN795 bolts are used as a pair and the load shared equally between them to ensure a 15kN anchor strength.

From a 'professional caver' standpoint it would probably be advisable to carry out a 6kN 'Axial' test on a 6 monthly basis for all bolts used in a 'work' situation. 

Mark 

 

[bograt]

Thanks for that Mark, just for clarity, is the 'shear' test in the same direction as the 'axial' test and is it the one I referred to as 'latitudinal'?.

Sorry, just re-read your post and it says 'in the direction of intended use', so that would be a 'yes'. :-[

Next question; do BCA fitters carry out this test?

 

[SamT]

Bograt,

BCA installers test all newly placed bolts under an 6kN axial load for 15 seconds.  Clearly, we cant 'scrap' any bolts once tested, thus only 6kN is used to prevent damage to the bolt.  Axial loads i.e. straight out, are much more straight forward to perform using pull testers than setting up a shear test at the wrong end of Winnats Head. And it stands to reason that, on the assumption that the bolt materials are more than up to the job, that if a bolt survives an axial load, then it should more than cope with a shear load.

It is not practical in to test all the scheme bolts on any kind of regular basis as we're all volunteers.  I'm fairly sure that all the DCA bolts, many of which were placed in the 90's were tested to 6kN a few years ago and found to be OK.

At the end of the day, I do think this is all overkill.  An whilst its better to err on the side of caution, I think a lot of cavers lose sight of the fact that YOU COULD HANG AN EFFING TANK OFF THESE BOLTS*.

* probably not strictly true, but probably a family car.

 

[TheBitterEnd]

Using Mark's figures, 12kN is equivalent to hanging 1.2 tonnes vertically off a bolt and I bet the bolt it's self doesn't fail at that. So certainly a family car; a scorpion tank weighs 8 tonnes so may be 

 

[cap n chris]

probably not strictly true, but probably a family car.

Easily. Especially if a "flimsy-looking" bit of dyneema is anything to go by connecting these objects together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8gyElykgck

 

[bograt]

OK Sam, but as I understand it from Marks post, an axial test is not straight out, it is in the direction of intended use, we all appreciate the incredible work you and all the other installers do, I'm not getting at any of you, just asking for clarification, I know the test rig being used and wonder about comparing the lateral shear between the BP and the SW, this does not have to be done after the anchors are in situ, I was thinking about Q.C. in production, rather than after use.

Looking at the tests on Simons link, none of the pulls are sideways (i.e. the most likely direction of intended use)