JoshW
Well-known member
Please please please don’t offer to replace the gate with a stile. Yordas is a cave that Bendrigg use lots in order to help chair users experience the underground. Having the gate locked would be an utter catastrophe for us.
Problem at Braida Garth in Kingsdale, last night.
- Thread starter Pitlamp
- Start date
langcliffe
Well-known member
That is true, but access to Yordas is a privilege, not a right. When a farmer's livelihood is threatened, they are in their right to withdraw such privileges. Anything we, as a community, can do to show a bit of goodwill is likely to be appreciated.
I've been to Yordas a lot over the last year. I found it amazing just how many people visit the cave from all walks of life. Middle aged ladies wild showering, single mum looking for free places to entertain the kids in the holidays, campervanners who'd heard about the place from other campervanners at ribblehead, young men looking for a cool place to smoke dope, etc, etc.
I thought what the place needed was an information board, not just with info on the cave but also encouragement on good behaviour. With the blessing of cncc i approached the NP through the contacts i made when getting similar info sign on the 3 counties system. Unfortunately, the NP no longer support such signage. It is possible to organise privately with the landowner but that also has planning implications. It all became far too much hassle and the idea was parked for the forseeable.
I expect any effort to put in a style would also flounder. Even if it was there would have to be an element which provided for access for all.
I don't think the farmer finds it much of a problem, or not to the extent he wishes to do anything about it. I did notice just last week the farmer left the gate open himself while he went about his business up in the field. I only mention this in case you find the gate open sometime and have a look up the field first before closing.
Yordas is a great asset in the NP and one of the few places where kids, the disabled, beginners, and all sorts of folk can experience a cave. It is sadly not a right, but long may simple access continue.
I thought what the place needed was an information board, not just with info on the cave but also encouragement on good behaviour. With the blessing of cncc i approached the NP through the contacts i made when getting similar info sign on the 3 counties system. Unfortunately, the NP no longer support such signage. It is possible to organise privately with the landowner but that also has planning implications. It all became far too much hassle and the idea was parked for the forseeable.
I expect any effort to put in a style would also flounder. Even if it was there would have to be an element which provided for access for all.
I don't think the farmer finds it much of a problem, or not to the extent he wishes to do anything about it. I did notice just last week the farmer left the gate open himself while he went about his business up in the field. I only mention this in case you find the gate open sometime and have a look up the field first before closing.
Yordas is a great asset in the NP and one of the few places where kids, the disabled, beginners, and all sorts of folk can experience a cave. It is sadly not a right, but long may simple access continue.
Maisie Syntax
Active member
It's not uncommon to see some of the sheep in the fields around Yordas jump over the walls and onto the road. Probably not as common to see them jump back though. Similar thing around Masongill too.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
That's your personal opinion, but it isn't a fact. I believe in the right to roam, meaning access to Yordas is a right, not a privilege.
langcliffe
Well-known member
A valid point - I had incorrectly thought that field was excluded from the CROW area. However, it doesn't negate my point that showing good will to the tenant can only help his view of cavers.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
I agree it's best to try and maintain good relations with these people. Running away from a gun whilst wearing a full SRT kit would be challenging.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
Pitlamp
Well-known member
In an attempt to steer this one back on topic, we've now made contact with the cavers who were there and they've supplied some very helpful information, which will be of value to our CNCC officers. No-one's blaming anyone and it looks like things can be put in place to avoid a similar occurrence in future (thanks to the information supplied).
The Yordas problem is unrelated and it's just rotten luck that it happened within hours of the Braida Garth incident.
There is already some more comprehensive access advice on the CNCC website, thanks to the officers who got on the case immediately. We're very fortunate that our CNCC is such a force for good.
The Yordas problem is unrelated and it's just rotten luck that it happened within hours of the Braida Garth incident.
There is already some more comprehensive access advice on the CNCC website, thanks to the officers who got on the case immediately. We're very fortunate that our CNCC is such a force for good.
Speleofish
Active member
Referring back to the 'rights' and 'privileges' where access is concerned. You may have a right to walk over one person's land but, if that right is abused, She'll be pissed off (as will He). One night's drinking later, every other farmer in the area will agree. It may not affect your right to roam, it will definitely affect your freedom to play on land that isn't open access. If you want to dig in the next field, permission may be denied.
It's a big problem where I live (and only applies to walkers cos we don't have caves). A few (genuinely difficult) legalistic intruders have upset several landowners. It doesn't affect the currently accepted footpaths but it does mean they'll fight any new ones (many of which have historical precedent). As we're trying to re-establish several lost paths, the 'help' from outsiders has been very counterproductive.
Bottome line: tact and diplomacy are really, really important...
It's a big problem where I live (and only applies to walkers cos we don't have caves). A few (genuinely difficult) legalistic intruders have upset several landowners. It doesn't affect the currently accepted footpaths but it does mean they'll fight any new ones (many of which have historical precedent). As we're trying to re-establish several lost paths, the 'help' from outsiders has been very counterproductive.
Bottome line: tact and diplomacy are really, really important...
There is a right to roam, but not to access the cave, so they could put a gate on it if provoked
I've seen sheep in the Pennines cross cattle grid
al
Member
Ah yes - the old ovine "commando" roll - it's a great sight to see!
I think you'll find that generally speaking cavers have fostered good relations with farmers and landowners across the dales. As this very OP suggests. There are a few notable exceptions but these are very few. In some respects having rights and fighting for better rights of access to the countryside has actually helped foster better relations.
Speleofish
Active member
Totally agree with Badlad. But this has often required a long, period of careful diplomacy by tactful people who understand (or are seen to try to understand) the farmers' or landowners' points of view. The people I refer to are recent arrivals who seem to have no understanding that farmers have to make a living and couple demands for access with loud criticisms of farming practise.
One of the more helpful things which I think is missing today is the promotion of the countryside code. I remember the cartoons on the telly way back when, around closing gates and keeping dogs on leads, etc. Some folk don't realise how to behave I reckon and could do with some positive reinforcement of simple messages. It could only help.
thehungrytroglobite
Well-known member
Well I agree with that. I enjoy a good trespass but always do so 'respectfully' ie. closing gates, staying away from houses & buildings, looking out for livestock, leaving no trace.
One thing to keep in mind is some people simply don't know the countryside code, not because of any individual faults, but because it hasn't been made available to them. I work with kids all the time who have never even seen a sheep before. School budgets have been slashed, being far fewer school trips, the curriculum doesn't allow space to incorporate outdoor ed (most of the time, only private schools make the time for that), poor public transport networks make it hard for a lot of folk to get out of the city, etc. When I see people throwing bottles and cigarette butts out of cars, it makes me angry, but I know that it is not just the individual's fault. It's a symptom of an ever-increasing disconnect between humans & the natural world. Our society is so fixated on technological advancements & concrete blocks that no one teaches kids how to tell an oak from a beech anymore, let alone about the 'countryside code'.
Now it's Shaun the sheep (code updated 3 years ago):
www.lakedistrict.gov.uk
The Countryside Code
How to be a caring visitor to the Lake District - take your litter home, leave no trace.
