axbridgecaver
Member
The stal that were put up for auction on E-bay on 1st September sold for £4.99 yesterday
axbridgecaver
Member
Slightly off topic but the same seller is now auctioning specimen of an ENGLISH Pleistocene European Cave Bear from the Mendip Hills of Somerset, England.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130025028145&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D130025028145%26fvi%3D1
"This is a rare old collection specimen of an ENGLISH Pleistocene European Cave Bear ( Ursus spelaeus ) fragmentary bone. It is in its orginal as found CAVE BRECCIA matrix. This is a 100% NATURAL SPECIMEN some 8cm x 8cm x 5cm in size, the bone fragment is 7.5cm long.
This evocative & rarely seen fossil is very typical of bone preservation within cave breccia's.
Collected many years ago from a Pleistocene cave breccia deposit in the Mendip Hills of Somerset, England. Unlike the rather common East & Central European Cave Bear fossils English examples ARE RARE & GENUINE MATRIX EXAMPLES VERY RARE.
Supplied with label. Heavy item."
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130025028145&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.co.uk%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fsearch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D130025028145%26fvi%3D1
"This is a rare old collection specimen of an ENGLISH Pleistocene European Cave Bear ( Ursus spelaeus ) fragmentary bone. It is in its orginal as found CAVE BRECCIA matrix. This is a 100% NATURAL SPECIMEN some 8cm x 8cm x 5cm in size, the bone fragment is 7.5cm long.
This evocative & rarely seen fossil is very typical of bone preservation within cave breccia's.
Collected many years ago from a Pleistocene cave breccia deposit in the Mendip Hills of Somerset, England. Unlike the rather common East & Central European Cave Bear fossils English examples ARE RARE & GENUINE MATRIX EXAMPLES VERY RARE.
Supplied with label. Heavy item."
cap n chris
Well-known member
Almost certainly* from Westbury Quaternary Deposits IMHO (pure guess BTW!).
* Almost certainly = haven't a clue
* Almost certainly = haven't a clue
cap n chris
Well-known member
How would this be established? Are people issued with receipts/permits by the quarry owner?
Is there a statute of limitations on unauthorised collection of objects which may have monetary value AND archaeological interest? If so, what's the deal with flint hunters who get verbal permission (or none) from landowners and who may subsequently wish to sell their collection/items?
Is there a statute of limitations on unauthorised collection of objects which may have monetary value AND archaeological interest? If so, what's the deal with flint hunters who get verbal permission (or none) from landowners and who may subsequently wish to sell their collection/items?
graham
New member
Well, I can give one example of how it should work:
The UBSS dig in Tynings Great Swallet uncovered a certain amount of arcaheological material, mainly bone - human and animal - this material has now been acessionned to our museum collection. Our collection management policy states
6.3.1 Material to be collected should be only that to which the UBSS has a clear title.
6.3.2 No material shall be accepted unless an accurate provenance is obtained.
Clear title was gained by the granting of the material to us by the owner, the Charterhouse Caving Company Ltd., the owners of teh sire from which it was obtained.
The UBSS dig in Tynings Great Swallet uncovered a certain amount of arcaheological material, mainly bone - human and animal - this material has now been acessionned to our museum collection. Our collection management policy states
6.3.1 Material to be collected should be only that to which the UBSS has a clear title.
6.3.2 No material shall be accepted unless an accurate provenance is obtained.
Clear title was gained by the granting of the material to us by the owner, the Charterhouse Caving Company Ltd., the owners of teh sire from which it was obtained.
cap n chris
Well-known member
:-\ Does "clear title" have a legal definition or does it boil down to having permission (of whatever kind, be it in writing or verbal)?
Am I missing something or is there a certain amount of cross-over between CCC Ltd. and UBSS, to such an extent that UBSS effectively operates as the "archaeological department" of CCC Ltd., almost by default?
Am I missing something or is there a certain amount of cross-over between CCC Ltd. and UBSS, to such an extent that UBSS effectively operates as the "archaeological department" of CCC Ltd., almost by default?
mike barnes
New member
I have only just noticed this thread and with it's sad implications now coming to light, I appeal to the moderator to do something. Hopefully, all readers will be becoming aware of much deliberate damage to cave stall in several well known caves, see my recent thread 'damage to stall in several caves' in the general caving section, and also 'dickheads in swildons' in the Mendip one. Much beautiful stall has been smashed and sawn off. For Gods sake, publishing the prices on the internet what stall is selling for is creating a milder form of the California Gold rush. It may only be a few quid, despite of course the intrinsic value being priceless, irreplacable, but history teaches us that there will ALWAYS be people who will exploit ANY situation. The tragedy is, this thread, however well intentioned, may well have started a ball rolling which is now steadily de-nuding the stall from the very caves we love. PLEASE Mr Moderator, act now and remove this intire thread, or at the very least the prices which some correspondants have published here. Of course I appreaciate thart many more people look at e-bay than this web-site where stall prices can be seen, but it can only do harm if the wrong person reads it. In the mean time, I will crusade to remove such items from the e-bay web-site.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Do not remove this thread; it serves a purpose. The crap prices which stal get on Ebay if anything reinforce the pointlessness of people selling such items whether or not they are legitimately gained or illegally harvested; also, the sort of people likely to sell cave formations are not going to be swayed by what they read here nor are any people sufficiently interested in caves to bother themselves with this forum or thread likely to suddenly decide to go to the bother of vandalising a site specifically to potentially end up earning themselves £4.99. Please read the thread in its entirety, Mike, and you'll see that it's where the Ebay watchers post info on what's being offered, by whom and for how much it sold (if indeed it ended up being sold at all) and the correspondence/approaches made to those vendors. If you wish to pursue this matter please feel free to make (another) approach to BCA so that they put together a robust case to Ebay management to impose a policy of veto against such trades taking place on their site (as is the case in USA).
AndyF
New member
Yes, keep the thread going.
How can a concensus on action be reached if we are banned from discussing it. Not debating this will not make it go away. Publishing the price is importnat, as action will be different if it were £5 rather than £500. A sensible debate needs the facts, times, values, locations and perpetrators.
I don't believe anyone of this forum is going to rush out with a hammer, inspired with the hope of making £5 on e-bay.
How can a concensus on action be reached if we are banned from discussing it. Not debating this will not make it go away. Publishing the price is importnat, as action will be different if it were £5 rather than £500. A sensible debate needs the facts, times, values, locations and perpetrators.
I don't believe anyone of this forum is going to rush out with a hammer, inspired with the hope of making £5 on e-bay.
Ship-badger
Member
Unfortunately Mike (Barnes) this forum is not making the problem worse, but is a very small part of the cause of the problem, which is the internet as a whole in my opinion.
Twenty years ago, if you wanted to visit a cave you had to be very proactive in order to do so. You had to buy a guidebook in order to find out where the caves were, or join a Club. You had to acquire a lamp from somewhere.
Today the locations of many of our finest (and not so fine) caves are recorded on hundreds, if not thousands of websites. There are photographs of some of the most beautiful formations, together with directions to their locations underground. The internet has made this information available to anyone with a computer
So now any twat who wants a bit of stal doesn't have to do much surfing to find out where he can get some. Then all he needs is a £5 headtorch off Ebay and he's away. Publicising the prices that the twat gets for the stal on this forum will certainly not encourage anyone to go and get some.
If we want to stop this then the only answer in the short term, in my opinion, is to gate every cave with any stal of note in it. But we all know what a lot of people will say to this suggestion don't we? As I have said before on another thread, we could campaign for some legislation giving calcite the same sort of protection as ivory, but in the time it would take to happen, the stal hunters could strip every cave of it's stal. The quarrying industry would never let it happen anyway.
No; it will have to be gates!
Twenty years ago, if you wanted to visit a cave you had to be very proactive in order to do so. You had to buy a guidebook in order to find out where the caves were, or join a Club. You had to acquire a lamp from somewhere.
Today the locations of many of our finest (and not so fine) caves are recorded on hundreds, if not thousands of websites. There are photographs of some of the most beautiful formations, together with directions to their locations underground. The internet has made this information available to anyone with a computer
So now any twat who wants a bit of stal doesn't have to do much surfing to find out where he can get some. Then all he needs is a £5 headtorch off Ebay and he's away. Publicising the prices that the twat gets for the stal on this forum will certainly not encourage anyone to go and get some.
If we want to stop this then the only answer in the short term, in my opinion, is to gate every cave with any stal of note in it. But we all know what a lot of people will say to this suggestion don't we? As I have said before on another thread, we could campaign for some legislation giving calcite the same sort of protection as ivory, but in the time it would take to happen, the stal hunters could strip every cave of it's stal. The quarrying industry would never let it happen anyway.
No; it will have to be gates!
mike barnes
New member
Well, I thought my suggestion might be controversial. Whilst I read this thread in it's entirity, I have never looked at the e-bay site. I have my suspisions as to what sort of person is responsible for the current wave of damage. Beer, joints, a few quid to be made for beer money, young people, probably cavers with a little bit of experience. It seems to me there can only be 1 group of people who fit these criteria. The poor student. I can hear the screams of indignation now. I'm not castigating all students, of course not. But a few undiserable elements of the college fraternity would fit the bill as the most likely suspects. If one were to investigate all college clubs in the south of the uk, I expect one would find the 'Andy' and 'Ian' we would all like to meet. Is it not possible this problem of stall removal has escalated because of this thread. Afterall, if computers were around in my college days, I'm sure I would have browsed sites such as this one. Some of the responses to my previous comments surprise me. When I was a student, it makes me cringe now to think how poor I was. If I thought I could have got a fiver for a bit of stall, which surely nobody would notice anyway, I hate to think I may have been tempted myself. £5 is only 'pointless' if you've money in your pocket to start with And there are many 'poor' students out there.
Locking of all caves would solve a problem, but in the real world, looks unlikely to happen. The answer has to be making the removal of stall underground illegal, as a result of by-law legislation. It is illegal to remove moss from the Dartmoor National Park. One is not allowed to remove boulders, gravel or sand from a beach. I think I'm right in saying removal of Limestone Pavement is now forbidden. I have written to my local MP urging him to look at this problem, using such emotive phrases as, 'In my great, great, great, great grandchilds lifetime, this damage will not repair itself'. I urge all cavers to take 20 minutes and do the same. However, the real weight would come from the National Caving body, (sorry, can't remember how the recent name change went) to lobby the National Parks to introduce such legislation. Once the removal of stall becomes illegal, the problem will surely dissappear.
Locking of all caves would solve a problem, but in the real world, looks unlikely to happen. The answer has to be making the removal of stall underground illegal, as a result of by-law legislation. It is illegal to remove moss from the Dartmoor National Park. One is not allowed to remove boulders, gravel or sand from a beach. I think I'm right in saying removal of Limestone Pavement is now forbidden. I have written to my local MP urging him to look at this problem, using such emotive phrases as, 'In my great, great, great, great grandchilds lifetime, this damage will not repair itself'. I urge all cavers to take 20 minutes and do the same. However, the real weight would come from the National Caving body, (sorry, can't remember how the recent name change went) to lobby the National Parks to introduce such legislation. Once the removal of stall becomes illegal, the problem will surely dissappear.
Peter Burgess
New member
I was reading your last message through, and it all made sense to me, until I read the last phrase.
I don't know how to put this any kinder, but Mike, what planet are you living on?
It is illegal to damage a Schedule Monument, but it doesn't stop teenage morons breaking into such places and wreaking havoc. This is a highly topical matter in my area at the moment, so I do know what little regard some idiots have for the law.
Yes, making it illegal might stop people trying to sell it, but many times idiots are just out to have a good time, and that often means smashing stuff up. Vandalism has no respect for authority.
OK, perhaps I was a bit harsh, but we are having serious problems at the moment with kids who are'nt intent on making money, they are just out to cause trouble.
Elaine
Active member
I would tend to agree that having this thread is a good idea. I am sure that most of the people that use this forum are conservation minded, and to have as many of us as possible aware that this potential problem may spread to our precious caves then we will be more vigilant in catching the perpetrators.
Peter Burgess
New member
Graham
I think Mike meant to criminalise the sale of stal. That would remove the incentive some people might have for stealing it. I agree that criminalising the vandalism would solve little. Students are as capable of causing deliberate damage as much as anyone else.
I think Mike meant to criminalise the sale of stal. That would remove the incentive some people might have for stealing it. I agree that criminalising the vandalism would solve little. Students are as capable of causing deliberate damage as much as anyone else.
