Superstitious cavers

[SamT]

Wow - ok, thought it was perhaps something common and well known about in PDHMS circles.  I'm now racking my brain trying to remember the various places I've seen it.  Be good to document it since it seems to be un-heard of.

I'll have a word with JT, as it was he who first pointed it out to me on a few trips.

 

[graham]

I'm reluctant to label it "ritual" yet as that's the archaeologists cop-out for anything you don't know WTF it was ...

Yup, if it doesn't fit Ralph Merrifield's definition of "ritual" then don't call it that.

 

[tony from suffolk]

I never whistle in mines any more. I did once in the Mines of Moria & got attacked by hordes of Orcs and a bl**dy great big Balrog. that's probably Where the superstition comes from.

Incidentally, it's considered rude to whistle in Russia.

 

[AR]

Wow - ok, thought it was perhaps something common and well known about in PDHMS circles.  I'm now racking my brain trying to remember the various places I've seen it.  Be good to document it since it seems to be un-heard of.

I'll have a word with JT, as it was he who first pointed it out to me on a few trips.

Some idea of where the evidence is lurking would be much appreciated,  I'd like to go and see for myself, preferably with Phil so get some decent photos. Sougher's responded over on AN to say she wasn't aware of this as a tradition either, so it is looking like it's something arcane and confined to Bradda

 

[gus horsley]

Hi AR -

I guess this is not completely Off Topic, but what do you know about burning heather in caves mines.  It was something we've spotted evidence of in a few mines round bradwell and always presumed it was some sort of superstitious ritual performed by the miners.

It's actually mentioned in a few old texts, I think I've seen it in Mineralogia Cornubiensis and De Re Metallica.  Burning heather or gorse was an attempt to create a draught and thereby ventilate a mine.  Sometimes they were burnt at or near the entrance in the vicinity of a wooden "flue" at floor level, sometimes near an air shaft. These plants were chosen because they burn very rapidly.

In Cornwall there were other mining superstitions such as not returning to your house if you'd left something behind, leaving small offerings to the Knockers (which some authorities believe were the spirits of Jews) and sewing small pieces of galena into your thatched roof to prevent nasty beings from taking your baby and replacing it with a changeling.

 

[paul]

In Cornwall there were other mining superstitions such as not returning to your house if you'd left something behind, leaving small offerings to the Knockers (which some authorities believe were the spirits of Jews) and sewing small pieces of galena into your thatched roof to prevent nasty beings from taking your baby and replacing it with a changeling.

There's also the Knockerdown Inn near Carsington Water in the White Peak.

See a photo of the pub sign and other info at : http://www.flickr.com/photos/7382107@N04/491590032/#

 

[AR]

It's actually mentioned in a few old texts, I think I've seen it in Mineralogia Cornubiensis and De Re Metallica.  Burning heather or gorse was an attempt to create a draught and thereby ventilate a mine.  Sometimes they were burnt at or near the entrance in the vicinity of a wooden "flue" at floor level, sometimes near an air shaft. These plants were chosen because they burn very rapidly.

That sounds plausible, especially if there's signs of a wooden or stone fang anywhere close by the remains of the heather. Hopefully I'll be able to go and see for myself!

 

[SamT]

Nope, the remains we've seen were literally only sprigs, and not positioned in a way that would facilitate ventilation.
I'll have a think AR and see if I can recall exactly where we saw them.

 

[AR]

I phoned Jim Rieuwerts last night and he's never heard of burning heather or gorse being used to encourage draught in Derbyshire mines. His gut reaction was similar to mine, that small bunches of heather or gorse might be used as brushes in fireset pipeworkings but small bunches being burned underground is a new one on us. It's possible that some of the Cornish miners known to have been working in the Peak in the mid 19th-century might have tried a technique they were familar with in some of the Bradda mines though I'd have to see for myself what remains to cooment further.

Sam, is the place you've seen this somewhere down in the furthermost reaches of Moorfurlong? It's just I recall Jim Thompson mentioning to me that the Eldon had been looking around down there for a possible connection to Bagshawe.

 

[Pitlamp]

I've spent many hours whistling in Far Sump Extension over the years, especially when climbing some of the bigger avens. Never had an encounter with the old man because of it. Apart frrom that stemple he once threw down at me from higher up. Or that tap on the shoulder whilst kitting up to come back through Far Sump. Or the rope oscillating on its own in the draughtless Salmon's Cavern. H'm - maybe Ben was right after all! 

 

[Armchair]

No matter how weirdly experienced in a remote place, falling stemples and oscillating ropes could have some sort of rational explanation, but the 'tap on the shoulder' episode? Perhaps not.
Any plausible theories? .

 

[SamT]

I think we've all probably had 'tap on the shoulder' experiences.  I have had, though personally never in caves, only in mines....

but is that me and my perception at play or not, who knows. 

 

[Pitlamp]

I think we've all probably had 'tap on the shoulder' experiences. 

That's good - I'm glad it's not just me!

The strange thing, with hindsight, was that when mine happened in Far Sump Extension I was on my own at the time and I just looked round momentarily to see who it was without thinking, rather than realising it was strange.

There probably is a rational explanation of course (maybe a harness strap slipping bit by bit along my shoulder whilst staggering into all the diving gear?) but I couldn't pin it down to anything obvious at the time.

Oh well; life's never dull eh?

 

[Joe90]

Could a good explanation be falling water drops landing on you. Iv had it before and that's what I assumed it to be.......

 

[SamT]

Nope - its definitely the grisly ghost of T'owd Man tapping you on the shoulder to give you willies and hence dissuade you from entering his mine again!!!

 

[Roger W]

It couldn't possibly be a sort of remote tap from a guy on the surface with a dowsing rod, could it?

 

[SamT]

Roger, your a genius, why didn't I think of that before. Of course, its obvious now you mention it. 

 

[Mark]

Digging at the end of Hungerhill Swallet, hammering noises from around the corner in front of us, when we eventually got round it there was nothing to explain the noise

 

[Armchair]

Roger, you're ahead of the game, as ever ...

 

[Born again caver]

This happened to Mr Weston, whilst walking through the coffin levels in a Derbyshire Mine/cave (cannot remember which one) he had a tap on the shoulder. Nobody behind him, no dripping water, nothing of this mortal world to explain the tapping. He carried on, but when it occurred again he left the mine/cave.