Peter Burgess
New member
Surrey Scouts built a cave out of a massive pile of straw bales, complete with sump/duck, at an event last weekend. I am not sure that straw is the best medium for training how to belay kit though.
UK, cave training way behind the curve?
- Thread starter cap n chris
- Start date
Bottlebank
New member
graham said:
As I've only been caving around about thirty years I'm a little too young to remember the Good Old DaysTM when cavers were properly 'ard.
But I like the theory, as the longest ladder pitch I can remember doing was about 120 feet that would bar me from having to prussic anything over that, which nowadays suits me just fine
cap n chris
Well-known member
I'll have a stab at some ancient logic, Graham.... here goes.
Ancient banter/mythness bandied around in the pub: "Ye verily, squire, this new-fangled SRT is easier than climbing a ladder". Educated types would say "No, the energy required to raise a mass a given distance remains an unassailable constant", and would insist, using logic, that they are correct; therefore those who had earlier incorrectly hoped that SRT would make all their vertical aspirations easy-peasy then said, "OK, we'll still adopt the new technique because we can rest whenever we want mid-pitch, but we'll insist that everyone has sufficient stamina to climb a pitch on ladder/line first because they need to have that much strength to do SRT, as proven by your huge brain some moments ago".
Any good?
Ancient banter/mythness bandied around in the pub: "Ye verily, squire, this new-fangled SRT is easier than climbing a ladder". Educated types would say "No, the energy required to raise a mass a given distance remains an unassailable constant", and would insist, using logic, that they are correct; therefore those who had earlier incorrectly hoped that SRT would make all their vertical aspirations easy-peasy then said, "OK, we'll still adopt the new technique because we can rest whenever we want mid-pitch, but we'll insist that everyone has sufficient stamina to climb a pitch on ladder/line first because they need to have that much strength to do SRT, as proven by your huge brain some moments ago".
Any good?
Peter Burgess
New member
Practicing chimneying techniques got a whole lot harder when they banned sending small boys up flues.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Have we swerved off topic yet?
Peter Burgess
New member
I guess.
graham
New member
One rather more serious comment on facilities like the one above. It's not original, I know, but it does bear repeating.
There is a dichotomy between teaching people how to explore caves and teaching people how to descend caves. When p-bolts first came, this was mentioned as an issue as it causes a clash between the conservation objective of limiting the number of bolt placements and the exploration ethic of learning how to rig a pitch completely from scratch, as opposed to merely 'joining the dots'.
The argument was, and it has some merit, that p-bolting all the caves and teaching people how to rig pitches either in those caves or on artificial setups like the above does not teach them the skills needed to explore virgin caves.
A further extension of this principle also arises from the modern focus (I was going to say 'fixation' but perhaps that is too pejorative) on training in that I have seen some young cavers who have become wary of breaking new ground, even for them. There seems to be a reluctance in some quarters to just find a new (to them) cave & do it, unless they have someone who has been there before.
By way of contrast I remember a trip in S. Wales many moons ago, that I did with a friend who had not been down this particular cave before. We were short of tackle, having only decided to take a detour once the trip had started. We got to a short pitch, one which I had descended before & I said that, as we didn't have any tackle, we'd have to stop there. He said "If we were exploring this, you'd free-climb that." He was right, so we did & even got down the following pitch by dint of some amazingly inventive use of kit.
Happy days.
There is a dichotomy between teaching people how to explore caves and teaching people how to descend caves. When p-bolts first came, this was mentioned as an issue as it causes a clash between the conservation objective of limiting the number of bolt placements and the exploration ethic of learning how to rig a pitch completely from scratch, as opposed to merely 'joining the dots'.
The argument was, and it has some merit, that p-bolting all the caves and teaching people how to rig pitches either in those caves or on artificial setups like the above does not teach them the skills needed to explore virgin caves.
A further extension of this principle also arises from the modern focus (I was going to say 'fixation' but perhaps that is too pejorative) on training in that I have seen some young cavers who have become wary of breaking new ground, even for them. There seems to be a reluctance in some quarters to just find a new (to them) cave & do it, unless they have someone who has been there before.
By way of contrast I remember a trip in S. Wales many moons ago, that I did with a friend who had not been down this particular cave before. We were short of tackle, having only decided to take a detour once the trip had started. We got to a short pitch, one which I had descended before & I said that, as we didn't have any tackle, we'd have to stop there. He said "If we were exploring this, you'd free-climb that." He was right, so we did & even got down the following pitch by dint of some amazingly inventive use of kit.
Happy days.
cap n chris
Well-known member
graham said:
Can relate to that.
Bottlebank
New member
graham said:
I've noticed the same trend.
And as well as this I've come across people feeling anyone teaching them should be "professionally" qualified to do so - although they sometimes are relying on CLC's (caving with them as club members for free I assume) for this - who of course aren't.
I suspect it's the way things are going - so maybe we'll see better training facilities develop regardless.
I've seen this in action; I've also seen, at the other end of the spectrum, people going underground with an inadequate appreciation of what is involved in SRT and getting into a complete mess.
Mind you, I once watched with great trepidation, and having tried to dissuade her, someone start off down Death's Head Hole after announcing cheerfully that 'She'd never done a rebelay, even in practice on the surface, but she knew the theory and was sure she'd be alright'. In the event she was fine (if a bit slow!).
graham said:
I wonder if this tendency has developed independently in caving, or whether it has at least partly crossed over from climbing, mountaineering and other outdoor courses?
I recently returned to rock climbing after more than 20 years away and was very struck by the frequent references to courses attended and courses intended to be booked.
Browsing mountaineering and outdoor forums in recent years suggests a well-established similar trend in those fields also; again something that was much less prominent a couple of decades ago.
I could certainly envisage that people crossing over from one of these activities to caving would bring a training awareness and appreciation with them that old fogies like me mostly lacked...
ah147
New member
Training awareness is a huge thing in all outdoor sports currently. Though as a young person (22) with 11 years of climbing including Yosemite/winter alps trips, 11 years of rec diving, 8 years of tec diving, 7 years of skiing and a year and a bit of caving...I've had two skiing lessons and done an open water diving course
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
martinm
New member
Pitlamp said:What's wrong with a tree for learning SRT?
Costs nowt and environmentally friendly (i.e.no energy consumption to produce all that concrete).
I never saw the point of artificial caves I'm afraid - if you want to go caving, er - go in a cave?
our training tree at Wetton Mill before it was cut down to make way for a new barn:-
We used to practice changeovers, rescue techniques and all sorts on it back in the 80's.
Happy days.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Trees do not provide the opportunity to replicate pitch head manoeuvres or traverses. They are OK for just doing the up/down stuff.
