South Wales Caving Club is pleased to announce that it has recently completed the purchase of around seven acres of land including the entrance to Ogof Ffynnon Ddu I.

At the end of 2010 the club was approached by the Toye family, who have owned the cottage and land at Y Grithig for many years, and they explained that they had reluctantly decided to sell the property. They asked if we were interested in buying a parcel of land to include not just OFD 1 but also Powell?s Cave and other sites of speleological interest. A site meeting was held to discuss potential boundaries, and it was clear that this was a one-off opportunity to secure permanent access to, and conservation of, one of the UK?s most important caves. However, the sum of money involved represented a significant outlay for a club with limited reserves and it was essential that the club?s committee consult with the wider membership before proceeding.

Our members recognized the unique nature of the opportunity and were overwhelmingly in favour of the purchase.

We were fortunate to secure a grant from the Countryside Council for Wales (CCW), amounting to 25% of the purchase price, and SWCC would like to record our thanks for this. A significant proportion of the balance has come from donations from individual SWCC members, and we are planning a major fund-raising event for the autumn to reduce the impact of the purchase on club funds.

The purchase was completed at the end of July. As far as we are aware this is a ?first? in British caving; we can?t think of another club that actually owns a cave entrance.

Our parcel of land has now been fenced, and on 3rd August a ceremony took place at the cave entrance to commemorate the 65th anniversary of the cave?s discovery. A plaque in memory of our late President, Peter Harvey, was placed and the Toye family were invited guests.

A couple of points of housekeeping: for the time being, existing rules of access to OFD I continue. The leadership system has served the cave and cavers well for many years. However, as mentioned in an earlier post, cavers must not use the traditional route through the cottage garden to get to the cave. For details of the new route see the ?sticky? post at the top of the ?Wales? board. Your co-operation is appreciated.   

Congratulations.  Cavers have done this in the US and it will protect cave access in future against the whims of land owners. As a matter of curiosity how many other UK sites are owned by cavers and has anybody researched land purchase to protect specific caves?

mrodoc said:

As a matter of curiosity how many other UK sites are owned by cavers and has anybody researched land purchase to protect specific caves?

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I know of two caves on Mendip that are owned by individual cavers. The BEC, I believe, has a lease on the entrance to Cuthberts (which a lawyer will tell you equates to 'owns') and the Charterhouse CC Ltd, a consortium of clubs has a lease on GB and Charterhouse caves.

Yes Congratulations to the SWCC on this impressive venture.

Many congratulations, SWCC. A cave owned by cavers, enjoyed by cavers, and conserved by cavers.

A great and, as indicated above, very rare opportunity, well done SWCC!

Congratulations! - a very good example to set, an exciting and excellent precedent and hopefully establishing a trend!

excellant news indeed! Well done all of the SWCC. 

Unlike the good Cap'n, I sincerely hope that this does not set any sort of precedent or establish a trend. It would be much better if we harangued our MPs until we got a right of access to cave entrances (I believe they sort of have this in Spain, though it doesn't always seem to work). SWCC did the right thing in the circumstances, and I thank them very much for doing what they have done; but wouldn't it have been so much better if they hadn't had to spend all that money?

It would be much better if we harangued our MPs until we got a right of access to cave entrances (I believe they sort of have this in Spain, though it doesn't always seem to work).

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If it doesn't always work then is it worth pushing for in this country...? (I don't know what they have in Spain so unsure of what it entails)

And we sort of have right of access  in certain areas (ie. up on the fells), it's part of that old crow/open access farce, we can quite easily and legally walk right to the cave entrance, but can't go in.... 

By comparison with Spanish cave access bureaucracy the UK looks like a free-for-all, unfettered open season with no restrictions whatsoever, imo.

Ship-badger said:

It would be much better if we harangued our MPs until we got a right of access to cave entrances

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Ho hum, here we go again ...

I administer access for a cave whose entrance is 50 m from a main road and next to a very large residential estate. If the world and his wife were to have a 'right' of access to it, then no-one would have access to it 'cos I would never have been able to negotiate to have it reopened unless the access was under some sort of control. too many young kids around, see.

As it was it took several years of patient work.

Ship-badger said:

Unlike the good Cap'n, I sincerely hope that this does not set any sort of precedent or establish a trend. It would be much better if we harangued our MPs until we got a right of access to cave entrances (I believe they sort of have this in Spain, though it doesn't always seem to work). SWCC did the right thing in the circumstances, and I thank them very much for doing what they have done; but wouldn't it have been so much better if they hadn't had to spend all that money?

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Fair do's, Ship Badger.  I'd also like free access to your back garden, 'cos I suspect you might have something interesting there. Ta muchly.


We'll be along shortly.

These are the sort of responses that I expected, so I ought not be too disappointed.
Cavers simply cannot afford to buy land to secure access; I suspect that most Clubs do not have the financial wherewithall of SWCC. It dismays me that so many cavers on this forum accept the way things are so readily; perhaps even happily.

Hughie has beaten me to it!

Ship-badger, perhaps I should clarify. Ever since it was discovered, access to Ogof Ffynnon Ddu I has been by permission of the landowners. Several generations of the same family have been kind enough to put up with cavers going through their garden to get to the cave (and paddling in their water supply, let's not forget). Now that the family has decided to sell the property, they were kind enough to parcel off seven acres of land to enable us to purchase the cave entrance and secure our access. If they had not done this access to the cave would almost certainly have been lost, as the chances of a new landowner welcoming cavers into his/her garden were extremely slim.

Yes, we paid a premium price for our parcel, given its likely value as agricultural land, but once the associated fencing and legal costs have been taken into account no-one's made a fortune here. SWCC buying the land has ensured permanent access for cavers and we are grateful for the opportunity the family gave us to do this.

Before anyone pipes up that cavers might have established some sort of right-of-way to the cave by visiting it continuously since 1946: no we haven't, since that access has always been by permission. Look it up!

And I think that you are mistaken about cave access in Spain. A few years ago SWCC went to the Parque Nacional Ordesa and caving is specifically forbidden throughout the Park. This includes the Grotte Casteret (which has a big metal fence across the entrance) and other fine caves. And this in a national park. 

Ship-badger said:

Cavers simply cannot afford to buy land to secure access; I suspect that most Clubs do not have the financial wherewithall of SWCC. It dismays me that so many cavers on this forum accept the way things are so readily; perhaps even happily.

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Please don't be dismayed, Mr. Badger! Indeed I am sure you are right that most clubs do not have the financial resources to purchase parcels of land with cave entrances but there are definitely some that do - it has long been mooted (happy to oblige you with source reference if you desire) that cavers and their organisations should be involved in securing access by purchasing land (in recent years the BMC has started to do this with crags/quarries for climbing) and based on the approximate figure of 5,000 UK cavers it is easy to see that a national appeal resulting in, say, ?5 being donated each*, could raise ?25K/year... surely adequate to purchase pockets of cave-bearing land, held in Trust for the benefit of bona fide cavers/clubs etc..

I don't see it as a cause for dismay.

* Less than two beer tokens. Hardly a king's ransom (unless you're a caver, that is!).

But Chris, why should cavers ever have to pay anything to go caving? Surely it's their inalienable right?

Nope, I'm with Tony_B and SWCC on this one. Good to see.

Shipbadger wants a complete free-for-all. Open access for all administered by anyone with a Landy and winch to remove gates.

I look forward to Shipbadger commenting on the farmer-dynamited entrances and gross vandalism that will result.

I can't believe how quickly Shipbadger's comments are seized upon and taken so out of context. as far as I could tell, he was only congratulating SWCC on their action but expressing a view shared by many of us I am sure, that it was necessary but not ideal to have to splash the cash and it would be nice for Right to Roam to include caves. no mention of gross vandalism or dynamited gates! 

And I can't believe how short people's memories are of some of Shipbadger's other comments on the subject of cave access.