I've been directed here from UK Climbing.com, to seek expert advice from cavers....

I would like some advice about purchasing an abseil rope please.

I am looking for a 100 metre abseil rope for an upcoming rock climbing trip to the isle of Pabbay.  This is a remote isle in the Outer Hebrides

I understand that the rock there is *very* abrasive (Lewisian Gneiss - like granite but rougher), and I read reports of people trashing their ropes on day 1! I will get rope protectors & use them as much as possible.

Does anyone know whether there is any difference between different brands of abseil rope? Particularly in terms of abrasion resistance and general robustness.

I've used Beal Antipode 10.5mm for caving and outdoors group abseils for many years now. It does good service.

Generally speaking - the tighter the weave, the stiffer the rope, but the more abrasion resistant it is.  Therefore the ropes that tend to handle nicely are less resistant than the stiff ones.  Most Beal ropes handle nicely.

However, bear in mind that all ropes will abrade and suffer damage on sharp rock.

A lot of Rope Access industry is using 11mm Teufelberger rope at the moment.  It will be as good as you can get for the money.  My advice is to find an industrial supplier which will be cheaper than from a climbing/caving shop.  Spanset are the main importers for industry I think or try some of the rope access training centres.

American ropes (Bluewater, PMI, Sterling) are seen as the most abrasion resistant but they will be much more expensive and will still get trashed eventually.

If you are going to any of the Hebredian Islands kp64zl , then weight may be a consideration for you.

most places that I have climbed out on the islands involve a bit of a trek carrying gear etc.

I echo what glyders has advised with the BeaL Antipodes. its a good rope with reasonable abrasion resistance and reasonable handling properties.
Couple that with it not being overly heavy but still a substantial enough rope to cater for most of the demands which you will need it to do. The only slight downside is that you may find it has a slightly more dynamic "feel" to it, especially on a 100m drop. but it will perform well.

Make sure you have rope protectors and just be more discerning with your rigging and you should be fine......

What Badlad says.

In ye olden dayes, 11mm Bluewater II had the reputation of being 'the' premier abrasion- resistant rope.  The club I belonged to in the mid and late 1980s failed to wear various lengths out despite doing a good deal of mine exploration which usually involved massive abrasion points and little use of rope protectors. It's still available in the USA, I gather, and can, at a price, be imported into the UK...

I am not aware of any work on the ability between different ropes to withstand rubbing, though there is a lot of hear say.

I published in Descent (the caving magazine) an article where a rope was cored (abraded through to showing the cords in its core) within 12 people using the rope (see http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=11956.0 for photo of the rope).  I recall a death in Europe back in 1970s where only three people had descended the pitch before the rope parted.  So the moral of the story is DON'T LET THE ROPE RUB ANYTHING.  Rough rock will rip through any rope in frighteningly few motions.  And cavers who I respect seem to miss recognising the damage before it gets serious.  So don't think you will spot damage in time to take action. 

I can only suggest you use plenty of belays to avoid the rope touching any rock under tension and rope protectors where there is the remote chance that some one will 'go off line' thus causing the rope to touch rock.  On abseiling, each person should go slowly and check the line as they go.  Be prepared and know how to tie out a cored section.  After each use, check the rope by a visual inspection, a tactile inspection and also a rolling loop inspection along the whole length.

And apologies for teaching grandmothers to suck eggs but we are talking about ropes which conform to BS EN 1891:1998 being semi static ropes rather than BS EN 892:2004 being dynamic mountaineering ropes.  Semi static ropes have bugger all shock absorption capacity in them so don't expect to walk away if you fall on them.  But unfortunately they have enough give to allow the rock to saw its way into them.

I write as BCA Rope Test Officer.

PS - I have seen abraded samples of Blue Water and Pit rope from the USA, so don't even believe their claims. 

Even with the classic military black abseil ropes I remember there was still plenty of bounce in a long descent. They were static, not even semi-static. Oh, and they were a right **** to look after and rig.
I did assume the OP was talking about using ropes for abseiling to the start of pitches that will then be lead on dynamic ropes.

Hi Glyders, yes, we would rig a 100m abseil rope as in this picture (you can see the rope if you look carefully):

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-72FLGzjvgXw/UEMVQKmyvDI/AAAAAAAAAI4/1qXngCBMYys/s1600/From+Chris+-+1.jpg

We would then climb back up with our dynamic ropes, then pull the abseil rope back up.

The route I have my eye on is called "Prophecy of Drowning" which is E2 5c, and goes up diagonally rightwards from the bottom of the abseil (approximately).  There is also one call "The Priest" (E1 5b) that goes straight up. 

Of course there are other cliffs on Pabbay that we would need to abseil into, but I think this cliff is the highest

Lots of rope protection at any rub points on the way down and it won't really matter what low strech rope you use (you could even use dynamics, but you are unlikely to have one that long). Its only if you end up prussiking back up your abseil rope for any reason - then beware!.
This is where the bouncing action will cause a sawing action on the rope. If you think it's a posibility then be very careful with the rigging and consider "rebelays" (reanchor the rope below serious rub points, such as the top edge, so it hangs freely).

I disagree with Bob about american ropes such as Bluewater - I think they DO stand up to more abrasion than Beal (albeit only anecdotal personal experience, but the construction is different, they feel/handle differently and some stretch less).

cavermark said:

Lots of rope protection at any rub points on the way down and it won't really matter what low strech rope you use (you could even use dynamics, but you are unlikely to have one that long). Its only if you end up prussiking back up your abseil rope for any reason - then beware!.
This is where the bouncing action will cause a sawing action on the rope. If you think it's a posibility then be very careful with the rigging and consider "rebelays" (reanchor the rope below serious rub points, such as the top edge, so it hangs freely).

I disagree with Bob about american ropes such as Bluewater - I think they DO stand up to more abrasion than Beal (albeit only anecdotal personal experience, but the construction is different, they feel/handle differently and some stretch less).

Click to expand...

Sorry to challenge you but there is some extension whilst abseiling so the sawing action can take place.  Both cases I quoted had far more abseiling that prusssiking.  How much movement of the rope do you need to get an abrading action?  At the extreme case, how wide is a knife blade?

Re American ropes, I only want to dispel the idea that they are immune from rubbing.  And as I said "I am not aware of any work on the ability between different ropes to withstand rubbing, though there is a lot of hear say."

I would refer the OP to Bobs posts since he has broken more ropes than anyone else on this forum.
I would suggest Bluewater in your case but lacking info on how much abuse its going to get I will accept no responsibility for this suggestion.

Thanks everyone -- clearly  "it's not what you got but how you use it" that seems to be the resounding message here. 

That is very helpful, we will, of course, make meticulous efforts to protect our ropes as advised.

If you can find it, PMI Pit Rope Max Wear. It has the least amount of stretch of any cave rope on the market that I am aware of (it is superstatic) which also helps it's abrasion properties (it's stretching and rubbing, the stretch/relax motion is a large part of what abrades a rope). It is a very tight weave as well. We here joke that PMI Max Wear cuts the rock (not true, but it will wear smooth rope groove spots if rigged in the same place for years!).

I see Bluewater was mentioned, as far as US ropes for caving are concerned, bluewater is a thing of the past. It is spongy and not nearly as abrasion resistant as max wear and there are much better options these days for that sort of thing.

There is a Canadian rope called Highline, which many argue is actually even MORE abrasion resistant than PMI Max Wear. Speaking as climbing miles of rope a year and hanging out with people who are doing vertical miles every week (SRT, not rock climbing) - I can attest to it does seem that the rope of choice to drag through caves and be able to treat roughly is Highline in a lot of cases. However, Highline does not give a smooth long rappel. For a good rappel, PMI is again your best bet.

Since you will be absailing on this rope only, that will make it easier than if you were prussiking back up it. It's the bouncing of the climbing that tends to abrade the rope the most, absailing is MUCH less stress on it. And yes, pad pad pad pad! If it is really horrible (at a lip, for example) you may want to look into edge rollers for that top edge.

PMI is about 80 cents a foot, Highline is 40 cents a foot. Keep in mind both ropes are extremely stiff (a side effect of low stretch tight weave abrasion resistance) so it may be hard to rappel on depending on what devices you are using. There is a reason we don't use stops/bobbins over here, and a long rappel will chew up a figure 8 quickly (yes - i have seen them almost be chewed through on a single 10-meter rappel on these ropes - it's not just a theory that it can be quickly worn through!) But, that gives you an idea to how tough the ropes we use in the US for SRT are.

And remember that static ropes are not meant to take a fall on. I gather you want to rappel this 100meter face in one go, and then rock climb it back up on typical rock climbing gear not using this 100m rope.

I did a 2650-ft this summer (El Capitan) on single rope (the SRT route hangs over the Mescalito route, if that helps you at all) and we used PMI Pit Rope. It hung out for a week on the granite. We used edge rollers at the top and some heavy duty rope pads (heavy duck cloth with a rubber layer sandwiched between the duck). The bottom had a slight redirect and tensioning system to prevent winds from taking the rope around the Nose to the other side and help it keep from banging the rock. Mind you though we are using devices designed to rappel with a couple hundred pounds of weight underneath us. Wind loads meant we could be dealing with anything from 0 to 350lbs underneath us (the rope was 170lbs, the wind "lifts" or "pulls" on the rope). I don't know where you will be, but wind loading may be something to deal with. It's a little freaky rappelling the rope but seeing yourself move up the rock! This sort of wind motion - both load and horizontal along the face - may be things you will have to deal with both in rigging and the rappel itself.

Here's a video of our exped, you can see rigging/ropes/rollers/pads/gear for long rope. As I said this is all likely way overkill as 100meters is not a half mile, but it may jog ideas of what you need to think about.

El Capitan: VBATS 2013 Expedition

A good tip for padding top edges is to use bits of carpet - free if you find it in a skip!.
We use this in rope access for parapet walls and the like. Real wool is better than synthetic as it doesn't melt. Tie it on to to your rope with a bit of tat so it doesn't blow away!
Similarly canvas rope protectors are better than PVC. Lyon equipment sell them.

PM sent.

cavermark said:

A good tip for padding top edges is to use bits of carpet - free if you find it in a skip!.
We use this in rope access for parapet walls and the like.

Click to expand...

You surprise me.

HSE documentation states:

"Similarly the improvised protectors - pipes, carpet or rope bags, will all provide some degree of
protection in an emergency, but are far from ideal. In properly planned rope access work this
situation should never arise."

http://www.hse.gov.uk/research/crr_pdf/2001/crr01364.pdf

I guess that in occasional work on ancient buildings they may be required for protecting the parapet rather than the rope. There was a fun TV series a year or so ago doing things on ropes on churches, castles etc.

Cap'n'chris - the (extremely good) document you quote was used in consultation to draw up the Work at Height Regulations and the IRATA code of Practice. a coupe of paragraphs further down it states:

"In rope access, prevention is always better than cure. In situations where ropes run over sharp
edges, the initial reaction should be an attempt to re-rig the ropes to avoid them. If this fails, a
rope protector may then be used. Re-rigging or deviations should always remain the preferred
option. On the basis of the tests carried out this would ideally be a roll module for a parapet
edge and quality canvas sheaths for protection lower down the rope. Other types of protectors,
such as 100% wool carpet and 50 mm diameter scaffold tubes, may provide protection equal to,
if not better than, canvas. These could be the subject of further investigation."

IRATA code of practice 2.7.10.1 (Anchor line protectors) states: ......heavy duty carpet (with a high natural fibre content, such as wool) or canvas padding can offer good protection and are commonly used.......


For the cliff top use these guys are suggesting, I think a bit of carpet AND canvas rope protector would provide both padding and abrasion resistance.