hi,
  does anyone know where i can get an updated (in OS map form) version of the diagram in "CAVE DEVELOPMENT IN THE LIMESTONE OF THE INGLEBOROUGH DISTRICT; A. C. WALTHAM" that shows the location of some caves and the location of the differences in ages of rock.

i have tried to recreate it on a multimap os map but it's not as accurate as i would have liked, what i would like to do is measure the distance of holes from the rocks older than the limestone and find the statistical distribution.

Cant help with the op I'm afraid - but not sure if this is any use ??

http://cavemaps.org/default.htm

:idea: under the data tab - you can download the kml files and plug em into Google Earth, which has  ruler function which you can use for your measuring.

Why not try asking Tony yourself? I know that he had all that stuff around Ingleborough plotted on larger scale maps 'cos I had a copy on a time. No idea where that is now, though.

are there one or two Waltham's because the person who wrote this is A.C. Waltham is he the same as tony??

and how do i find tony?

A.C. ("Tony") Waltham. One bloke.

I'm afraid I don't have a current email addy for him, but I'm quite sure there will be someone on here who does have.

graham said:

A.C. ("Tony") Waltham. One bloke.

Click to expand...

or put another way - just to clarify

Anthony C Waltham. One Bloke

was that google earth thing any use ??

There are contact details for him on the Descent website in the caver directory although not sure how up to date this is kept.

http://www.caving.uk.com

i have seen the cave maps Google earth before but unfortunately it doesn't have the diagram i want with the geological age differences between the rocks.

i will try the descent website, thanks.

alastairgott said:

hi,
  does anyone know where i can get an updated (in OS map form) version of the diagram in "CAVE DEVELOPMENT IN THE LIMESTONE OF THE INGLEBOROUGH DISTRICT; A. C. WALTHAM" that shows the location of some caves and the location of the differences in ages of rock.

i have tried to recreate it on a multimap os map but it's not as accurate as i would have liked, what i would like to do is measure the distance of holes from the rocks older than the limestone and find the statistical distribution.

Click to expand...

Unfortunately, I am not familiar with that paper of Tony's (The Geographical Journal about 1971?), nor with the diagram to which you refer, but does Figure 2.13 from 'Karst and Caves of Great Britain' show the same information? If so, a high resolution copy is available on the web.

I'm quite intrigued by your wish to measure the distance of holes from the rocks older than the limestone. I can that the position of many caves (i.e. the sinks and their predecessors) from rocks younger than the limestone could be of interest in helping to unravel the erosion history of the area, but the older rocks?

from my primative knowledge of cave hydrology i would suppose that if the water sinks near to the rocks younger than the limestone then although less interesting the water must rise either before or at where the rocks older than the limestone are. but this is a complex issue as the strata of rocks are 3D. so yes it's good to know where the rocks older and younger than the limestone are but there is a lot more to it.

take the example of Gaping gill water goes down when it gets off ingleborough and dives into limestone where it meanders through passageways and pops out around a mile earlier than the line of older rocks, taking even the quickest glance at the scenery or overlaying onto an OS map would tell you that it pops out at the caves of ingleton, because it was much easier for the water to pop out there than to try and follow the contours of the hill down.

unfortunately i can't seem to add the image as my computer skills are not as great, if someone would care to PM me with instuctions; without the use of forum scorn i would add the image to the forum. am going to email tony waltham now.

instructions for posting photos. 

http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php/topic,7559.0.html

for the time being i will let this thread go dormant whilst i work on it. i may be back with findings.

Just for information, the GG water resurges rather less than a mile from an exposure of basement (i.e. older) rocks; the unconformable junction between the lower carboniferous limestone and these basement beds is clearly visible about 50 metres up valley from the bridge under the Nature Trail track in the Cat Hole Sike streambed. Where the GG water resurges (at Clapham Beck Head) the basement beds are thought to be only about 30 metres down. The water rises up-dip, which might explain why the rising is not on the actual basement.

Also the assumption that older rocks will be below younger rocks is flawed - Barbondale is an example where allogenic streams sink into limestone from older rocks above them.

Some of the "unexpected" drainage routes in the Dales can be explained because of northwest - southeast trending ridges and valleys in the basement rocks.

I'm sure that the editors of Cave & Karst Science would pass on an email to Tony Waltham to ask him to email you. Tony is a great bloke and I've found him to be more than helpful in the past.

Speaking of Tony - have you come across his book published last year entitled "The Yorkshire Dales, Landscape and Geology"? This will almost certainly tell you all you could want to know.

thank you for your reply it was excellent you are much more informed than me.

in the pub last night a friend was saying that you had replied to my post and that you had suggested a book that is rather hard to come by, (prehaps the library may be able to lend me a copy from somewhere, hmm...)

tony is a great guy and i too have found him a great help in the past few days.

[need to read that book]

Plenty of copies of Tony's excellent book for sale on Amazon still:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Yorkshire-Dales-Landscape-Geology/dp/1861269722/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1258021386&sr=1-1

Ordered it yesterday after seeing it mentioned on this thread....

Robin

might have to be an idea for Christmas as it seems like a good present idea, i'm lacking in ideas to give to people! its hard when all you want to do is cave, please give me a present of more days in the weekend so that i can cave more!

am reading tony's book and have sort of come to the conclusion that i may have been spouting rubbish!!!
from what i can ascertain the openings to caves WERE postitioned exactly on the change between the new and the old rock, before erosion wore away some rock and left a tad of limestone between the opening and the change in rock.
the end of a cave was also altered by erosion, i think a lot of caves used to be linked underground before a big chunk of rock was gnawed away by the ice age.
now i presume my only avenue is to try and find out why the cave "decided" on that exact point to be made.

What are you up to Al? Is this to do with what we were talking about in the car on the way to Aquamole? Its Jonn by the way.

ish but i now think its impossible other than tracing back geological change to before the ice ages gouged out big chunks of the hill side. because if water was isolated on its own (excluding the effects of glaciers) then i presume all caves would (sink and rise) on the border between limestone and other types of rocks, and even i presume all run [underground] into the sea (that is if allowed to form for trillions of years without glaciers).

what fascinates me now is why they take specific paths through the limestone underground, is this to do with the density of limestone where they run?, are they finding an unknown property of limestone and following it down?