Author Topic: BCA subs for DIMs 2022  (Read 1249 times)

Offline Pitlamp

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BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« on: November 03, 2021, 07:05:58 am »
Anyone know - is the DIM subscription for 2022 £20?

Can we pay it yet?

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2021, 07:24:34 am »
If you go to pay, when you get to the actual payment form it's £20

Mine doesn't need renewing until December, can you renew as opposed to rejoining when the old one expired? There's nothing on the form to "renew" only to "join"
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Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2021, 11:02:43 am »
Can you pay for BCA membership by direct debit again?

If not, why not?

I'm no longer a member but probably would be if payment had been by direct debit, I would have simply let it carry on.

Offline NewStuff

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2021, 08:23:33 pm »
I'm no longer a member
I'm stepping up and saying that everyone should let it lapse. Carry on caving,  it's not as if the ones causing all the issues will stick a BCA policeman on every entrance asking for your card. If they want to take their ball home because they can't play nicely, let them. Show them we don't need their ball. If they want to bleat on about legality, and rules, then do what they do, show them we don't care what they think. Do exactly what they do, just carry on regardless.

And to those that want to play dirty tricks with me, threatening my livelihood etc... you should know I've changed jobs. I no longer give 2 stuffs what you do putting my name out there. If it helps, the name behind the gobby posts is Ali Wiseman, and I will happily say anything I type on any forum, group, forum to your face. You don't get to hold that sword over my head any more.

For those that are not aware, a minority of people that are well known stooped to actively linking and publicising my name in places (here, other forums, websites, facebook groups etc), knowing that my employer had strict rules about social media and real details, given I previously worked in aerospace/defence. These people willingly endangered my livelihood (I had a number of "chats" with management about it) to try to silence me. That's the kind of lows these scum will stoop to in order to maintain the status quo.
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Offline aricooperdavis

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2021, 08:02:20 am »
NewStuff, feel free to start a thread on the BCA board entitled "I don't like the BCA" and post this sort of thing under it, but please stop derailing other threads with it.

The topic of this thread: BCA Subs

Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2021, 09:13:24 am »
New stuff - sorry, I don't understand what you're referring to. Just wanted to say, as the OP in this topic, I'm not responsible for any of the things you suggest have happened. I also feel this topic would be better if it reflected a more balanced view of BCA, so:

I'm a very active caver and an enthusiastic Direct Individual Member of BCA, as are many other cavers. I feel the Association serves me very well in many ways and I'm always happy to get my paltry subscription paid. (I'm not directly involved in the running of BCA but I'm aware that most are volunteers and perhaps deserve better than being subjected to a barrage of adversarial comments from various folk, often unsupported by evidence.

My main reason for this post though (bearing in mind aricooperdavis' request above) is just to ask again if anyone could confirm that my subscription for next year as a DIM will be £20.


« Last Edit: November 04, 2021, 09:32:11 am by Pitlamp »

Offline Katie

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2021, 09:25:37 am »
Quote
just to ask again if anyone could confirm that my subscription for next year as a DIM will be £20.

Hi Pitlamp,
Subs for 2022 are definitely £20 for a caving member. This is the same if you are a DIM or CIM.
(all other subs remain unchanged from 2021 - £8 for a student, £6 for non-caving, Under 18s free)

However I am unsure when the renewal form for 2022 will be up on the website.

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2021, 09:27:18 am »
... is just to ask again if anyone could confirm that my subscription for next year as a DIM will be £20.
I thought I already did?

Although they state it's £17 see here: https://british-caving.org.uk/membership/individual-membership/

When you look at making payment, you can see going to cost £20, see here https://caves.org.uk/payments/bca/forms/M1.html
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2021, 09:29:05 am »
Thanks Katie, thanks Tom - you've confirmed what I thought.


Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2021, 09:36:55 am »
£3 corresponds to a large (600ml) bottle of Nigerian Guinness, so this is no trivial sum.
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Offline Pitlamp

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2021, 09:44:26 am »
 :lol:    :clap2:

Offline cavemanmike

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2021, 12:37:27 pm »
£3 corresponds to a large (600ml) bottle of Nigerian Guinness, so this is no trivial sum.

Have you seen how strong that stuff is. Blow your head off

Offline Jenny P

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #12 on: November 05, 2021, 09:43:28 am »
Can you pay for BCA membership by direct debit again?

If not, why not?

I'm no longer a member but probably would be if payment had been by direct debit, I would have simply let it carry on.

The reason why not is because, in order to be able to receive a direct debit payment, an organisation has to have a certain level of money being paid in by this route.  This amount far exceeds BCA's income each year so direct debit to BCA itself (or to BCRA) is not possible.

BCA has looked into this several times in the past and, while it is possible to arrange for an agency to collect the direct debits for your organisation and pay them into your account, the agency makes a charge per payment. This charge is quite substantial so, if BCA went down this route, the subs. would have to be set quite a bit higher than they are now to allow for this.

So, for the moment, direct debit payments to BCA are not possible but I'm sure that the Treasurer has this under constant review.

Paypal seems to be the best alternative - but it does mean you remembering to pay each year.  An automated reminder might be helpful if this could be done but BCA still has the problem of not being abe to communicate with all its members by email.  Club Treasurers dealing with CIM payments do make a difference because they do the chasing of most club members.  But if you're not a club member or you want to be a DIM, you still have to do it the hard way.



Offline Pegasus

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2021, 11:04:11 am »
but BCA still has the problem of not being abe to communicate with all its members by email. 

Thanks for the info.

the fact that BCA is not able (or whatever phrase is correct) to communicate with its members by e-mail is ridiculous....

On what planet would a caver, who is a member of BCA NOT want to receive an e-mail from their governing body??  I'm sure BCA wouldn't bombard cavers with drivel, however they could for example send out a newsletter.  We have been at the sharp end of a complaint against UKC re GDPR (yes, there are folks out there who would do such a thing) and it became clear to me that GDPR is more about preventing large companies messing about with people's personal data (and quite right too), not about preventing members of various niche sports hearing from their governing body.

Only today, I have received e-mails from 5 different companies - moonpig (I like sending their cards), mixbook (great for photobooks) etc. I delete these e-mails and if they get too annoying I will unsubscribe.  It's no biggee. Come on BCA, find a way to e-mail your members - and to those who get in a dooflap about this happening, really???

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Offline DavidGibson

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #14 on: November 05, 2021, 11:50:04 am »
the fact that BCA is not able (or whatever phrase is correct) to communicate with its members by e-mail is ridiculous....

...and not actually true.

I am not a member of BCA Council and I cannot write authoritatively, but I think the comms problem is far more to do with volunteers' time than anything else. Certainly the list of DIM members, which I manage, holds email addresses, indicates which have withheld permission for us to use their email; its just that the "BCA Online" system that did the general emailing had to be dismantled a while ago. 

At the moment, Katie Eavis and I are handling DIM membership, and I can confirm that all DIM members WILL receive an emailed reminder of the need to renew their membership. (Apart from the thirty odd who have no email, and the half-dozen who have asked us not to email them). CIMs should receive their reminder from their club.

I can also confirm that the online form now shows the new membership rate for DIM caving members and can be used for 2022 membership - some of you have already "voluntarily" renewed for 2022 - thank you.

Someone asked about the difference between joining and renewing. There is no difference. BCA membership runs January to December (and there is a grace period for insurance after that date). If you join as a new member, now, for 2022, you get the remainder of this year free. So renewing for next year is just like joining now. This is why the form does not mention a distinction. But ...ok, perhaps it could be clearer.

As I said, an emailed reminder will be sent to members, but Im currently undecided about the best time to do this, as it depends on progress with other parts of the system. The slight difficulty is that the current online form is till the ancient clunky one that doesnt work well on phones and seems to glitch occasionally. Eventually it will be replaced with something that is easier to use, but the timing of that in relation to a renewal reminder needs bit of thought.  When there IS a new online form, we will start to address the payment methods. I do agree that Direct Debits would be handy. But if anyone feels desperately that they want to pay using an automatically-recurring payment, you could always use a standing order. These are easy to set up using your online banking.

Whilst Im writing, a couple more points ...

1) If you know your membership number, it DOES help us if you to quote it on the form. Membership numbers have five digits, like 45678.  Dont confuse that with the "transaction reference" of your last payment, which looks like BCA20-3456. When I send out the reminders, I will also remind you of your membership number.

2) Customers regularly tell us that they cannot pay via Paypal because they do not want to open an account.  If you follow the links on the application form (unwieldy and clunky though it still is) you should be taken to a Paypal page that DOES allow you to pay without opening an account. You might have to look at the small print - because Paypal clearly would prefer you to open an account - but you do not NEED to.
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Offline al

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #15 on: November 05, 2021, 12:46:59 pm »
Can you pay for BCA membership by direct debit again?

The reason why not is because, in order to be able to receive a direct debit payment, an organisation has to have a certain level of money being paid in by this route.  This amount far exceeds BCA's income each year so direct debit to BCA itself (or to BCRA) is not possible.

But we could all pay by Standing Order (AKA Regular Payments) as that wouldn't cost BCA anything. (Many people actually say Direct Debit, but mean Standing Order.) One big difference between a DD and a STO is that only the sender can amend the details of an STO (including the amount) whereas with a DD the business receiving the payment has to do the update.
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Offline Paul Marvin

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #16 on: November 05, 2021, 05:31:59 pm »
£3 corresponds to a large (600ml) bottle of Nigerian Guinness, so this is no trivial sum.

Have you seen how strong that stuff is. Blow your head off


I have tried it and yes it does pack a punch but its so yummy you have to be VERY careful   :bounce: :beer2:
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Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2021, 08:28:29 am »
the fact that BCA is not able (or whatever phrase is correct) to communicate with its members by e-mail is ridiculous....

...and not actually true.




Well true in the context as quoted from JennyP and Pegasus. 

I sat on BCA council for six years and the use of members email addresses was discussed on many occasions [sigh].  In the early meetings it was noted that BCA did not actually collect them and a concerted effort to ask for them ensued.  As many are collected through the clubs I think some clubs were reluctant to forward them on to BCA.  Discussions then followed as to whether BCA could use them to contact members and the IT convenor of the time was adamant that it could not due to GDPR.  Some of these issues must have been overcome now as BCA does seem to contact members for voting using email, but as i understand it contact for other reasons is still an issue.

The big issue was sending out the newsletter [discussed frequently].  The IT convenor was particularly adamant that it could not be sent out without specific permission from the member.  It was reported at one of the last meetings I attended that only 8% of the membership received the newsletter.  This is ultimately why there has been no newsletter in the last year or so.  The effort to produce it is hardly worth just sending it to so few people.  The same with other information BCA may want to communicate I guess.

For any organisation communicating with members is key.  This was why, certainly through Matt Ewles's short reign as secretary, that proposals were put forward to change the membership structure so that BCA could better serve its members.  I understood a motion had been passed at the 2020 AGM that required council to put forward a plan to the 2021 AGM as to how this was to be achieved.  I'd be interested to know what happened about that.


Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2021, 08:54:59 am »
FYI - this was put to the 2020 AGM (long winded I know but informative if you have the will to read) and accepted I believe.

"Total overhaul of BCA membership

Since the start, the BCA has had Group Members and Individual Members, with two classes of Individual Members depending on whether individuals source their BCA membership via their club or directly (CIMs vs DIMs). Most of our Individual Members are members of clubs, and therefore choose to get their BCA membership as a CIM. The concept here is fine, but this means that these members have no direct interaction with the BCA. This creates GDPR challenges, because it means BCA hold data on members with no way of ensuring that data was given to us with proper consent. These issues did not exist when the BCA was founded in 2004. This is also the reason BCA still do not hold email addresses for >2000 of their Individual Members (which is becoming a bigger issue with each passing year), and also why so many cavers don’t even know they are BCA members.

If the BCA were set up from scratch, there would certainly only be Direct Individual Membership. The concept of having a second class of Individual Membership which is administered via a third-party organisation (i.e. a club) would seem an unusual choice by today’s standards.

Current BCA infrastructure would not allow CIM membership to be abolished. The administrative burden on the Membership Administrator using current antiquated databases and systems would be huge. Cavers nationally would have to join the BCA themselves, rather than their club doing all the work; so that joining process would need addressing to make this a palatable process. Furthermore, as it is currently a requirement of Group Membership that all members of that group be Individual BCA members; this would be harder to verify if all BCA members joined directly rather than the majority through the club.

It seems likely that the necessary progression towards a more modern membership system is always going to be hampered by the above issues. Therefore, it is about time that the BCA started looking into addressing these issues by undertaking a complete overhaul of its membership systems, to create a situation where scrapping of CIM membership becomes viable.

This will require a total overhaul of BCA’s membership systems to make them very easy to use (e.g. simple online forms and electronic payment options), with the option for automatic renewal and direct debit so members do not, if they choose, have to go through the process every year other than perhaps an annual reverification of details and any necessary GDPR compliance steps.

The membership database would need to be a live document linked directly to the membership and payment processes, so that the system is automated and most membership renewals do not require input from the Membership Administrator. Furthermore, such a system could automatically check Group Membership applications to verify everyone in that club is an Individual Member and flag any who are not. Finally, there would need to be a member login section, ideally built into the website, where members can update their details and preferences and changes are made to the membership database automatically without manual intervention. Such a member interaction interface could also be used to facilitate member ballots after each AGM.

Note that these are the exact systems Gary Douthwaite was planning to develop until he and our Secretary were hounded out of their positions.

Finally, the sending out of physical membership cards would have to stop if all Individual Members joined directly to avoid a significant workload and cost of posting these out (currently they get bulk posted to club Secretaries). They could be replaced with an automatically generated membership confirmation certificate which can be emailed out (again, automatically) when payment is made, or available to download when a member logs into the website. Anyway, in this day of reducing plastic waste, I can’t think of anything better than abolishing 6500 plastic cards each year!

I propose that BCA Council start work so that the BCA’s membership systems and infrastructure are overhauled by the time of the 2022 Annual General Meeting, such that discontinuation of the CIM membership category, if desired, would not present any significant issues.
This work will need to ensure the above challenges are addressed and that the appropriate systems are implemented along the lines of the suggestions above. It is understood that this may require significant investment in membership software or electronic payment systems, and maybe even employment or contracting of the services of an IT professional, if enough voluntary resource with adequate skills to make this happen cannot be found. Use of off-the-shelf systems can be considered but paying for development of bespoke systems should also be an option.

The BCA has the money to invest in such things if necessary; we are quite unique for an organisation of our size to have so few paid roles or services.

This proposal is not to scrap CIM Membership; but simply to get the BCA into a position where it could scrap CIM Membership without negative consequences (a position that would undoubtably benefit the BCA regardless of whether a decision is then taken to actually scrap CIM membership... having more modern membership systems would be a benefit regardless).

A plan for how this is to be implemented should be presented to the 2021 AGM for approval and the changes implemented by the 2022 AGM."

Offline Fjell

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2021, 01:45:39 pm »
For a moment I thought we had moved on to the always highly exciting drinking of ale in Nigerian pubs, but we are back on email it seems.

Once someone has sorted out BCA IT they should move on to the comparatively trivial problem of NHS IT, it would help.

Offline T pot 2

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #20 on: November 06, 2021, 05:22:31 pm »
In my failing dotage years give me a clue to the acronym dims.
T pot

Offline Badlad

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Re: BCA subs for DIMs 2022
« Reply #21 on: November 06, 2021, 05:56:50 pm »
DIM = Direct Individual Member

CIM = Club Individual Member

I do wonder what other organisations would refer to their members as DIM?  :shrug:  Not very smart.

 

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