I Just found this article

Sewer Rat

Sewer Rat

New member
I am not in the diving community, but as a new person to caving I am intrested in all niches.
I read this article tonight and it was really heavy.
Probaly most of you have read this already.

The tragic story of Mr David Shaw in Bushmans hole.
for those of you who never read it , it is quite whoor.
judge for yourself .
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,6903,1580347,00.html
and the clip
http://www.inspired-training.com/Dave%20Shaw%20web.wmv

apparantly the original video was shown on austrilian tv
I was flicking through the diving section on here and never saw it mentioned.
:(
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
That's a pretty grim read :(

I didn't watch the video apart from the start - I don't want to watch somebody die like that.
 
Sewer Rat

Sewer Rat

New member
its not a snuff film.
its a commentary ofdavid shaws actions ect
it just shows the lack of co ordination but ends before the entanglement.
there is a diving forum at http://www.underwatertimes.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=1294
a chap there recorded the documentary and is willing for people to download it but i didnt .
:(
 
D

davepinch

Guest
I agree that it's not a snuff film.. This is the first time I have seen any of the video footage.. It shows how a plans can go wrong, at those depths it's difficult with narcosis to think clearly.. and with C02 building up from the over exertion..

Thanks for posting the link, my other half thinks I'm mad when I look into the causes of diving accidents, with cave diving accident analysis the whole game changed when Sheck Exley did the exact same.


Regards

Dave
 
Stupot

Stupot

Active member
I heard about this story awhile ago but had never seen the footage until now, i agree it's not nice seeing someones last moments but it does hit home about the true dangers of cave diving, and how even the most experienced people can end up in a situation well beyond their control, and at the those depths and in that senario there is sadly only only outcome.

It's kind of fitting that although David Shaw died trying to recover the body of Deon Dreyer and technically failed, both men finally did return home.

RIP David Shaw & Deon Dreyer.

Stu.
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
I didn't realise it didn't show his actual death, but I'm not sure I even want to watch a doomed man shortly before he dies anyway, but that's just me. I've watched far worse things online, but I tend to steer clear these days.

If I was a diver then I'd probably watch it because I guess I might learn something from it.

It strikes me that the attrition from cave-diving is similar to that of high-altitude mountaineering.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
Can we please stop trying to ascribe this to being a reflection of the "dangers of cave diving"? The fact that these two people died in a cave is largely irrelevant since this was a depth related accident. It could have just as easily have happened in the sea. I've personally been involved in attempting to analyse cave diving accidents on more than one occasion over the years and it is very important to stick to the facts. Sorry if you feel I'm a bit pedantic but I just can't let things like this go by without comment.
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
Yes it's more a reflection of the dangers of deep-water diving but it *was* still a cave-diving accident I suppose.

How many cave diving deaths are directly related to the environment and how many are typical of open-water diving incidents? Just interested that's all, I know very little about cave-diving.
 
Stupot

Stupot

Active member
I agree with Pitlamp this accident was related to diving at depth, but as Bubba stated it was a "Caving Diving Incident" and one that would not have happened if he was not trying to recover a body. Although the effects of CO2 killed him, Shaw becoming entangled in the line was to lead to this, an open water diver although open to the effects and dangers of deep diving probably would not be presented with the same items such as an overhead enviroment / line / recovering a body and the massive pyscological effects of such a task.

These are my views and i am sure "many" people have "many" views of this accident, but what is final, two men died and that's a sad loss.

Maybe we should say that diving in general can be potentailly dangerous.

Stu.
 
Pitlamp

Pitlamp

Well-known member
I have to agree with you Stu that cave diving is potentially hazardous (though it can be made very safe through good equipment and technique). I also agree that any loss of life is a painful tragedy which only those involved can fully understand. But this was essentially a deep diving problem which co-incidentally happened in a cave. Lines are used in open water as well as caves and closed water situations are also found in the sea (in wrecks for example). Anyone looking to learn from this (as I'm sure Dave Shaw would have wanted them to) should examine the problems of extreme depth rather than being sidetracked by issues germaine to being in a cave.
 
D

davepinch

Guest
Sorry Gents.. didn't mean to start a debate about the dangers of cave diving.. Say no more :oops:
 
F

Frog

Guest
please correct me if im wrong but i am under the impression that this 'cave' is actually a shaft meaning they werent technically in an overhead environment although this 'cave' has been used to set cave diving depth records.
the entanglement is something that could have happened in any environment and at any depth.
as a diver i can honestly say i would not want my body bringing up years after my death when there was nothing left but mush. what is the benefit?
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
Frog said:
as a diver i can honestly say i would not want my body bringing up years after my death when there was nothing left but mush. what is the benefit?
Click to expand...

I think it's usually to provide closure for loved ones.
 
graham

graham

New member
Frog said:
as a diver i can honestly say i would not want my body bringing up years after my death when there was nothing left but mush. what is the benefit?
Click to expand...

Well, for one thing, it saves others from having to dive "through" you for many years to come.
 
D

darkplaces

Guest
Interesting film and a very informative read.
I think two areas are shown here;
1. Everything has common dangers which we reduce with equipment and skills. driving, caving, skydiving, hill walking. entanglement can occure on a rope in a shaft, in open water or deep in cave dive.

2. Pushing the body beyond its physical limitations.
Deep diving, High altitude skydiving etc sit here so Its no surprise people die. Reading the artical the cave divers accepted that the posability was so high that they would die they even arranged how spouses would be told.

I suspect most cave divers sit happly in the number 1 slot, expect to come back and have no intension of doing something so extream.
...closure for loved ones.
Click to expand...
Its one thing to want to retreave a body to understand and prevent further accidents but maybe this closure is something made up by the americans people think they need and think will make it all better because people dont know what to do so follow a script of how they think they should feel and act.
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
The phrase "closure" might have become a bit of an Americanism and I'm not sure what an equivalent phrase might be. Nevertheless I think it is important for people.

From the orginal article:

Ten days after Bushman's Hole gave the bodies back, Theo and Marie Dreyer went to see their son. When the morgue attendant asked them to step in, Marie wasn't sure what to expect. When she saw a fully fleshed-out body, her tears stopped, and she felt happy. There was no head, but lying in front of her was her boy. Theo marveled that Deon's legs still held their athletic shape. Marie couldn't believe he was still in his Jockey underwear. 'We saw him,' she explains, her eyes shining. Overwhelmed, she stepped forward and took her dead son in her arms.
Click to expand...

I don't think she was following anyone's script, just her own feelings.
 
F

Frog

Guest
graham said:
Frog said:
as a diver i can honestly say i would not want my body bringing up years after my death when there was nothing left but mush. what is the benefit?
Click to expand...

Well, for one thing, it saves others from having to dive "through" you for many years to come.
Click to expand...

ok ok so i meant diving in general. yes i guess you would be in the way in a cave and it would be in the interest of others to move the body but im afraid not in this case. how many people were going to dive to the depth where deons body was?

as for closure, my friend lost a family member in a diving incident. just as she was starting to deal with the loss his body was found (minus head) and she had to go through it all over again.

i suppose we will all have different views on what is the best course of action in these circumstances.
 
graham

graham

New member
Frog said:
graham said:
Frog said:
as a diver i can honestly say i would not want my body bringing up years after my death when there was nothing left but mush. what is the benefit?
Click to expand...

Well, for one thing, it saves others from having to dive "through" you for many years to come.
Click to expand...

ok ok so i meant diving in general. yes i guess you would be in the way in a cave and it would be in the interest of others to move the body but im afraid not in this case. how many people were going to dive to the depth where deons body was?

as for closure, my friend lost a family member in a diving incident. just as she was starting to deal with the loss his body was found (minus head) and she had to go through it all over again.

i suppose we will all have different views on what is the best course of action in these circumstances.
Click to expand...

I agree we have different views and I was not intending to make light of the subject. Consider Alan Erith, who was found in Keld Head some years after he died. I can think of other cases where the body has moved considerable distances after death, as well.

It can be best to deal finally with these things as soon as is practicable.
 
bubba

bubba

Administrator
Frog said:
i suppose we will all have different views on what is the best course of action in these circumstances.
Click to expand...

Absolutely - and I guess none of us really know how we'd react until we're in such a situation. Going back to the original article, I can't remember reading whether Deon Dreyer's relatives were contacted as to their wishes before the recovery attempt was made.
 
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