Bolt query

T

tamarmole

Active member
Starting to think about my 2022 mine project: 

This will involve reclimbing a shaft which has a bit of in situ tat in it.  Whist pretty confident in the tat (famous last words)  for obvious reasons we want to back up the climb with regularly placed bolts and runners.  Due to the acid nature of our mines we tend to use M10 Rawbolts which  require a 16mm hole.  In terms of battery power and time this is not really a feasible option:  what bolt options are there for backing up a climb?
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
If you'll only be installing them temporarily so you can reach the tat to replace it then concrete screws would be an easily removable way to go, but I don't know how well they take falls (I suspect catastrophically...). I can bring some along for you tomorrow to have a play with?
 
Cantclimbtom

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
Not cheap but Petzl make a removable bolt and hanger in 8mm (less drilling) and 12mm (probably for industrial) called pulse. They are very sensitive to the hole, it has to be correct diameter and really circular so drilled with a 4 cutting point drill bit not usual 2 cutting point to avoid drilling a reuleaux pentagon (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_polygon) like you sometimes see on shot holes

I could loan you a few pulse 8mm for a short period if you definitely will return them! It might cost you a beer though.
 
pwhole

pwhole

Well-known member
One thing to note when using screws climbing is that it's harder to get them in straight if you're low - hammering in throughbolts from lower is obviously easy, but  I found I had to climb that bit higher to use a spanner effectively. I have often wondered about just blatting them in with the impact driver instead, but suspect small voids may not be easily detectable, whereas a spanner would transmit those.
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
I've bought a cheap SDS-Plus to 1/2 inch square adapter that I've put a 13mm socket on (might weld it at some point). That way I can switch my drill to rotary mode and do the bulk of the screwing-in with the drill on a low speed and just finish it off with a spanner. Obviously you need to be pretty wary about the amount of torque you put on the bolt head (so low speeds only and finish off manually), but it makes a bolt climb much more feasible.

In tamarmole's case he'll be ascending an in-situ rope so won't have the same issue of trying to get the screw in way above his head.
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
Surely for a temporary bolt climb, over drilled 8mm through bolts are the way to go.  super fast. 

Covered many times on these forums.
 
SamT

SamT

Moderator
Also - if you're worried about acid and the top anchors holding your "tat" (I assume this is a handline or something to help with the climb??)

How about some Titanium glue ins at the top..

http://www.titanclimbing.com/
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
Cantclimbtom said:
Not cheap but Petzl make a removable bolt and hanger in 8mm (less drilling) and 12mm (probably for industrial) called pulse.
Click to expand...

Very clever (if pricey) pieces of kit! I've seen one deform horribly after taking a dynamic fall though - I don't know whether they're rated for it but they're certainly single-use once fallen on!
 
MarkS

MarkS

Moderator
aricooperdavis said:
I've bought a cheap SDS-Plus to 1/2 inch square adapter that I've put a 13mm socket on (might weld it at some point). That way I can switch my drill to rotary mode and do the bulk of the screwing-in with the drill on a low speed and just finish it off with a spanner. Obviously you need to be pretty wary about the amount of torque you put on the bolt head (so low speeds only and finish off manually), but it makes a bolt climb much more feasible.
Click to expand...

Have you tried this in anger (i.e. with mud/grit etc. around)? I was with someone who tried, I think with an 18 V Makita, and it just didn't have the torque needed. I've also tried using an impact driver but having no real feel for the torque wasn't an especially nice feeling (although it wasn't for anything crucial).
 
aricooperdavis

aricooperdavis

Moderator
I haven't experienced that, but I've only put a couple of bolts in a nice clean mine shaft in soft Cornish killas, thanks for the heads up! I was also using an 18v Makita, but unsurprisingly it doesn't say what torque it can provide. I did find it hard keeping it all lined up (drill, adapter, socket, screw) above my head.
 
AlexR

AlexR

Active member
Was going to ask a similar question, I happened to used the drill method (SDS adapter to torx in Heco MM 7.5) yesterday - mainly out of necessity, my spanner snapped on me! That was a first. Unwilling to abandon the climb I used the adapter I'd brought as a backup.
With an 18V Bosch professional brushless I could just about get the screws in with some repeated "in and out", not ideal but I didn't have any other options. Peak, reef limestone. Mud and grit definitely involved.

It definitely does not work well, and almost impossible for the climbing bit. The in-and-out method isn't feasible with a stretched out arm, you'll loose the screw. Also, the starting torque will aim to break your wrist. Or it did for me, anyway.
 
Tseralo

Tseralo

Active member
AlexR said:
Was going to ask a similar question, I happened to used the drill method (SDS adapter to torx in Heco MM 7.5) yesterday - mainly out of necessity, my spanner snapped on me! That was a first. Unwilling to abandon the climb I used the adapter I'd brought as a backup.
With an 18V Bosch professional brushless I could just about get the screws in with some repeated "in and out", not ideal but I didn't have any other options. Peak, reef limestone. Mud and grit definitely involved.

It definitely does not work well, and almost impossible for the climbing bit. The in-and-out method isn't feasible with a stretched out arm, you'll loose the screw. Also, the starting torque will aim to break your wrist. Or it did for me, anyway.
Click to expand...

I found 8x100mm Excaliburs in a bit of rock not far from where you were went in fine with a ratchet spanner on full reach as long as you cleaned the holes first. Otherwise, it was a pig.
 
AlexR

AlexR

Active member
Hmh, my experience with strenuously top-stepping on the etriers trying to get the screw to bite at full reach have not exactly been wholesome, even with a ratchet spanner. They certainly help, though.
Sacrificing some height (less delicate position) it works ok, but still nowhere near as easy/ quick as expansion bolts. And I don't have a lot of reach to begin with, so loathe to shorten it further  ;)
 
Cantclimbtom

Cantclimbtom

Well-known member
Dunno... don't geddit, why would you want 8*100? If you want the security of something really bomber you want a 10 or a 12, if you are going for 6 or 8 diam you're minimising drilling and accepting bodyweight and small fall factors  (with the exception of soft sandstone) you'd want shorter than 100?
8*100 just seems an unlikely combination. To me anyway....

Again this is just me, really top stepping is nasty to install but if it's a bolt ladder you are leaving in situ, it may be way more doable for others to use and minimises the number of holes so leaves less human trace you make, probably that's a bigger factor on rock routes (or caves?) than mining?
 
Tseralo

Tseralo

Active member
Cantclimbtom said:
Dunno... don't geddit, why would you want 8*100? If you want the security of something really bomber you want a 10 or a 12, if you are going for 6 or 8 diam you're minimising drilling and accepting bodyweight and small fall factors  (with the exception of soft sandstone) you'd want shorter than 100?
8*100 just seems an unlikely combination. To me anyway....

Again this is just me, really top stepping is nasty to install but if it's a bolt ladder you are leaving in situ, it may be way more doable for others to use and minimises the number of holes so leaves less human trace you make, probably that's a bigger factor on rock routes (or caves?) than mining?
Click to expand...

TSG have installed a lot of 8mm Excaliburs so I know they are bomber 99% of the time and the location I was bolt climbing has some calcite over the limestone so I wanted enough length to get some bite in the limestone. Plus I have beefy SDS drill so if your waving it above your head a few more seconds to drill another 25-50mm don't matter.

AlexR said:
Hmh, my experience with strenuously top-stepping on the etriers trying to get the screw to bite at full reach have not exactly been wholesome, even with a ratchet spanner. They certainly help, though.
Sacrificing some height (less delicate position) it works ok, but still nowhere near as easy/ quick as expansion bolts. And I don't have a lot of reach to begin with, so loathe to shorten it further  ;)
Click to expand...

Fair enough I do have a bit more reach than you.
 
Mattrees

Mattrees

Member
AlexR said:
Hmh, my experience with strenuously top-stepping on the etriers trying to get the screw to bite at full reach have not exactly been wholesome, even with a ratchet spanner. They certainly help, though.
Sacrificing some height (less delicate position) it works ok, but still nowhere near as easy/ quick as expansion bolts. And I don't have a lot of reach to begin with, so loathe to shorten it further  ;)
Click to expand...

I have used a Raumer Stick-Up, which gives more reach per bolt.


https://starlessriver.com/shop/raumer-stick-up/
 
AlexR

AlexR

Active member
Sent you a PM Mattrees so I don't derail this any further.

Also correction, I used the chunkier Fischer FBS II screws (8x70), the Heco screws do not have a torx centre. The Hecos are definitely good for climbing, but Sunday wasn't a long climb and I wanted 8mm screws for the Y hang at the top anyway. Too much faff taking two sets.
 
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