Great news: the BCA has won its appeal against the refusal of the High Court to grant permission for us to bring a Judicial Review of the Welsh Government's decision to exclude caving from its Access Reform Group - on the grounds that caving is not covered by the provisions of the CROW Act 2000.

Winning an appeal - which was granted without the need for an oral hearing by Lord Justice Edis - was always going to be difficult, and our lawyers, Richard Buxton (solicitor) and Annabel Graham-Paul (barrister) deserve our warmest thanks - especially as they undertook this part of the case for free, because they believed that not being allowed to go ahead was so unjust.

The Welsh Government tried to deny us this review on very technical grounds, arguing that the decision to exclude us was not 'justiciable'. Anyway, this rather sterile argument is therefore over and resolved, in our favour, and the next steps will see us proceed to a hearing on the substantive issues at stake. Defra has added itself to the case as an interested party: whatever the court now decides, it will have national applicability. It's also possible the West Government will decide to reconsider the matter - which might mean they come back in six months they still decide caving is excluded, but in that event, we could start the case again, because they would have to pay our costs.

So we live to fight another day. At least there's some positive caving news in the middle of this seemingly endless lockdown!   

Yes, great news David.  Well done BCA for continued support.  It does show that we were at least right to review the case and that the financial backing has, at least so far, been worth the risk. 

Dave - please extend my thanks to the legal team.

cheers Tim

David Rose said:

...our lawyers, Richard Buxton (solicitor) and Annabel Graham-Paul (barrister) deserve our warmest thanks - especially as they undertook this part of the case for free, because they believed that not being allowed to go ahead was so unjust.

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This has changed my opinion about lawyers and reinforced my faith in human kindness and goodness. Certainly warmest thanks here.

That's brilliant news - well done to all involved.

Great news.

Chris.

Very well done! Fingers crossed (and toes)

Can't wait to see what the site that cannot be named publishes. If indeed they do.

Sounds great, well done!

However I am slightly worried about...

on the grounds that caving is not covered by the provisions of the CROW Act 2000.

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Does that not set a dangerous precedent, in that it means we are admitting that caving is not covered under CROW, so the relative open access we have due to CROW in the Dales could as a side effect be at risk from this? Just playing devil's what's it. Hopefully nothing to worry about.

Alex said:

Sounds great, well done!

However I am slightly worried about...

on the grounds that caving is not covered by the provisions of the CROW Act 2000.

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Does that not set a dangerous precedent, in that it means we are admitting that caving is not covered under CROW, so the relative open access we have due to CROW in the Dales could as a side effect be at risk from this? Just playing devil's what's it. Hopefully nothing to worry about.

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I think the not being covered under crow was the Welsh governments reason for not including it under crow.

True, just wondering what affect that statement may have in other non-welsh regions, where CROW might be assumed to include caving, hence why CNCC has been able to open up so many caves up in the Dales Up to now in England it was ambigouous but this seems to say it's a no, and therefor things might change for the worse here? Again probably being paranoid, so happy to be told there is nothing to worry about.

I also don't want to take away from Dave's good work in Wales, Drenen might finally be open to all, once we are actually allowed to travel there.

If we win, the decision will apply to the whole country - that is to say, England and Wales.

Actually I have re-read it, and I think I got the wrong end of the stick! Nevermind then, and well done all.

Kayaking / canoeing are specifically excluded under CRoW, climbing is specifically included, caving is just ignored (so far)

00berly awesomeness - absolutely marvellous.  Brilliant 

Huge debt of thanks definitely owed to both lawyers and BCA team. So the BCA card wasn't just sitting dormant at the back of my kitchen drawer, it's been hard at work!

That is great news...well done to the lawyer and the team around who did all the hard work

Great stuff! Thanks for everyone's work <3

We were always confident we were right but it's taken a pair of really ace lawyers to get this result!  Plus loads of hard work from cavers to provide them with the the information they needed to make the case and solid backing from BCA to cover the costs.

Thanks to all involved!

Good news David and well done to the team for your perseverance! Especially given the reported almost underhand tactics used at the last hearing or more favourably 'just ignore them and they'll probably go away!'

Alex said:

Drenen might finally be open to all, once we are actually allowed to travel there.

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Sorry for carping on about Draenen, I promise it'll be my only post! 

Alex, I don't understand this? Draenen has always been open to all. It has never been the case that any cavers have been stopped from going into the cave. I vaguely recall you posting that you once had some trouble with booking a permit but that can happen with any system and it's not exclusive to Draenen. Any caver can go anywhere in the cave and are free to just tourist, dig, climb, whatever.

While all parts of the system are accessible from any of the entrances, the discussion has always been about how many entrances there should be. Many members of our caving community believe that there should only be one entrance as that would be best for conservation. Many members of our caving community believe there should be more than one entrance as that would (does) make visiting various areas of the system more convenient. I believe a meeting of the PDCMG is planned for this year (covid restrictions permitting) to discuss possibly changing their single entrance policy. Of course the landowners only want cavers to cross their land via one route to access the original entrance only and have made it plain for years that they will not give cavers permission for surface digs on their land. Two of the currently open entrances are situated on Access Land so if you think that caving is covered by CROW, then you may feel justified in using them now, without waiting for a final caving/CROW decision. They were dug open against the landowners' known wishes so they may feel justified in closing them, who knows? (Can't see that happening though)

The arguments stem from a small number of cavers involved who don't seem to be able to respect the viewpoint of others. People who, in their own minds, KNOW absolutely that THEY are RIGHT so any differing views can't be valid alternatives, they are simply WRONG. A huge amount of absolute crap has been spread about Draenen for many years, going back to before the PDCMG was even formed. I just try to correct at least some this when I see it. I have sympathies for both viewpoints and am certainly not against Draenen having more than one entrance but equally I think they should be carefully thought through and not put in willy nilly. It almost seems like a game to some people, when the cave (and the image of cavers) is suffering. Just bear in mind that what you read on this forum or have been told 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th hand in person, may be very different to the actual situation.