Author Topic: Sewage dumping to be allowed  (Read 842 times)

Offline Brains

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Sewage dumping to be allowed
« on: September 08, 2021, 03:08:05 pm »
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/sewage-dumping-rules-relaxed-amid-brexit-induced-chemicals-shortage-289204/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=ukineu&fbclid=IwAR1SU_VADe_iqTM8uif17ICKbHO4rEJosPN0dRIzKdHZPo3abySNTQ0TrHE

Apparently the rules on waste water treatment have been relaxed due to a shortage of chemicals to treat the effluent. Another victory over that pesky EU, making us clean up our rivers and beaches...
Luckily most caves are above the line of sewage discharge, but not all (Slaughter Stream etc...). Mines may be subject to dumping, with places like the Great County Adit already acting to a certain extent as a main sewer. Some people also visit culverts and sewers in the bigger cities (Megatron etc) and these seem likely to be affected.
Be aware of more cases of Weils disease and perhaps bad air. The winning continues

Online Tomferry

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2021, 03:13:49 pm »
Could certainly bring in lots of bad air into the system . We have a local iron mine where this Happens get lots of storm drain run of into it with the rotten vegetation the gas affects can be life threatening is a serious issue when it happens .

Offline sinker

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2021, 08:10:53 pm »

Be aware of more cases of Weils disease and perhaps bad air. The winning continues


Totally unconnected and going off-topic, but having been hospitalised with Weils Diesease earlier this year, which I'm 99% certain was contracted in work, I can assure you all that it is WORSE than the hype.  :o

Take it seriously!


Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Online Fulk

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2021, 08:53:08 pm »
Yep! My wife contracted some horrible infection that we think was Weil's Disease, although it was never formally proven; anyway, as a result she was hospitalized for more than a week (longer than the 6 days I spent in hospital after open-heart surgery!).

But – 'Sewage dumping to be allowed' – this in what is still, in spite of everything, one of the richest countries in the world?

Offline ChrisJC

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2021, 09:49:34 pm »
I would be interested to hear some alternatives?

Poo less?

Chris.
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Land Rovers

Offline 2xw

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2021, 11:52:15 pm »
Isn't it a bit concerning how much we rely on other countries for the basic stuff like ... Water treatment. Sure, apply the free market to fitbits and mangoes but shouldn't there be some things that are treated as critical infrastructure?

Online Tomferry

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2021, 07:43:05 am »
I don’t want to stroll of a very important topic back to brexit, I feel it’s necessary to also say similar to the above comment that we need to bring this sort of thing back in house so their is not delays with important things like this .when working on my previous job the amount on f.W drains running into s.W balancing lagoons was very alarming so this has been happening for a long time already I believe it’s scale has probably just been bumped up again .

Offline mikem

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2021, 07:53:21 am »
The main problem is that we were one of the first countries to install mains drainage, which means the system can't cope with the increased load that we now apply & because we've built everywhere, it's not a cheap or easy fix.

Online Tomferry

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2021, 08:14:53 am »
None of are surface water drains so every road gulley you see and all your houses down pipes goes anywhere via ponds balancing lagoons and the river system I never visited a site where the s.W drains go to be treated unless,their was a large oil spill then we had special bags to install in the water course .

Every time you wash your car on the street all of them bubbles waste soap and other by products  is already doing this , all  of them hand car washes washing thousands of cars is already causing large effects to the environment. not a nice thought  but it’s happening on a monster scale.

The solution to solve this by a old Landrover and never wash it just cause global warming instead . :spank:

Online aricooperdavis

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2021, 08:52:40 am »
None of are surface water drains so every road gulley you see and all your houses down pipes goes anywhere via ponds balancing lagoons and the river system I never visited a site where the s.W drains go to be treated unless,their was a large oil spill then we had special bags to install in the water course .

It very much depends where you are in the country, and also what you consider surface water. In new developments runoff from the roof shouldn't go into foul water sewers, but it often does in existing properties, where even the surface runoff can go into the foul sewer. And where foul and surface water systems do not exist these carefully seperated flows end up both being connected to a foul sewer anyway! Cross connections are common both ways too. Fixing this requires huge infrastructure changes, which will be eye wateringly expensive and disruptive, but are necessary, and will go some way to make the system more resilient to climate change and population growth/urbanization. I do think our days of taking our water supply, water treatment, electricity supply etc for granted are numbered...

Offline Ed

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2021, 10:43:09 am »
None of are surface water drains so every road gulley you see and all your houses down pipes goes anywhere via ponds balancing lagoons and the river system I never visited a site where the s.W drains go to be treated unless,their was a large oil spill then we had special bags to install in the water course .

Every time you wash your car on the street all of them bubbles waste soap and other by products  is already doing this , all  of them hand car washes washing thousands of cars is already causing large effects to the environment. not a nice thought  but it’s happening on a monster scale.

The solution to solve this by a old Landrover and never wash it just cause global warming instead . :spank:

All those car washes are on agreed strength discharges to foul sewers -

The majority of domestic surface water drainage actually goes into combined sewer  - foul and surface water combined. This one of the big issues as the waste water treatment infrastructure in a most of the country is struggling due to hydraulic load rather than BOD / COD demand of the sewage.

There is also the issue of private cross connection of foul to non public surface systems and culverts (one that don't connect to the public foul/combined system or weren't build by the sewerage undertake to relieve pressure). 

To give Ilkley as an example -- the first UK inland  bathing area -- it will never have the water quality the campaigners want no matter when YW do. There will still be a big issue with private cross connections that the house owners are responsible for. Finding these is a massive task in itself

Offline ttxela2

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2021, 10:46:15 am »
FFS

It's also been quite difficult to get car parts recently due to Brexit/Covid etc. Perhaps the rules should be relaxed to allow me to drive my car without brakes for a while until things are sorted out.......

Online PeteHall

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2021, 11:18:21 am »
And where foul and surface water systems do not exist these carefully seperated flows end up both being connected to a foul sewer anyway!
Correct, but the further they are separated, the easier it will be to fully separate them later.

Quote
Cross connections are common both ways too. Fixing this requires huge infrastructure changes, which will be eye wateringly expensive and disruptive
Which is precisely why it needs fixing a bit a a time (see my point above). Over time, our drainage networks will improve.

The other thing that's worth remembering is that we have no idea of the scale of the problem. The various regional water authorities were obliged to adopt a lot of previously private drainage (in the 90's I think) and until there's a problem with it, they don't even know it exists. The networks never match the records and even when you physically survey a system, it often brings more questions than answers and it is pretty much impossible to get a complete understanding of a system without digging it up. Modern systems are much better and current design standards require a chamber wherever there is a junction (there are a few exceptions to this, like gully connections), so in theory, any part of the system should be accessible for survey and maintenance.

Below a combined sewer (foul and storm) we were looking at a couple of weeks ago. You can see it's a Victorian brick culvert, though records show it as a 300mm pipe. There is a brick window high level on the right and a bit further on at low level on the left. Straight ahead, a 300mm diameter clay pipe enters and you can just see a vertical connection into the top of this also straight ahead is a 150mm diameter pipe. We have no idea at all where any of these connections come from, except the 300 pipe straight ahead. It is almost impossible to work out where any of the other 4 connections come from, or even if they are still connected to anything. None of these connections appear on any records. And that's just what we can see at one point on that sewer!

Offline Ed

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2021, 12:00:08 pm »
Sewerage Undertakes were made to adopt the existing sewerage network that terminate at a public sewage treatment plant if the were completed pre 1 January1937 ---- local authorities in those day. Due to Public Heatlh Act 1937 section 24

Between then and 1 July 2011 any drainage to the public network was private unless developer applied to the sewerage undertaker for adoption and it was accepted --- (Local Authorities until 1973, Water Authorities  1973 - 1989 and then post 1989 Water Companies)

There was a change in 2011 following 2010 consultation which resulted in the The Water Industry (Schemes for Adoption of Private Sewers) Regulations 2011 - this brought existing private sewers "ownership" in line  with those transferred in 1937


Online aricooperdavis

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2021, 12:05:46 pm »
I totally agree PeteHall. Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the utilities, just highlighting the severity of the problem. My research, part funded by water companies, is all about reducing the frequency and severity of CSOs - they're working hard to improve the situation, but it's no mean feat. On my morning dog walk I passed a manhole that was overflowing down my street, strewing toilet paper (and the rest) all over the place  :(

Online PeteHall

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2021, 01:24:39 pm »
On my morning dog walk I passed a manhole that was overflowing down my street, strewing toilet paper (and the rest) all over the place  :(

Not nice!

I'm sure you already know this Ari, based on your comments above and obvious knowledge of the industry, but for the benefit of others who read this:

If a sewer is blocked and flooding, the water authority have a duty to come out and sort it. Most of my dealings are with Wessex Water, who aim to attend any blockage within 4 hours of a report. They are usually pretty good at this, though whether they are able to clear it straight away is another question.

I put in a call at 12 noon Friday before last. The jetting unit arrived on site at 15.55, despite bank holiday traffic heading to/ through the south west. The first guy (a contractor) couldn't clear it. Wessex sent their own unit on the Tuesday, who still couldn't clear it. They sent in a bigger unit on Wednesday and it the ticket was closed by about lunchtime. The delay getting the second team in was because they needed a streetworks licence from the council and weren't able to sort this over the bank holiday weekend. Had the sewer been overflowing (which it wasn't) it would have been classed as emergency works and they could have got on with it without the licence.

Online Tomferry

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2021, 02:22:02 pm »
Majority of my work is in new builds well actually more 10-20 years old is the common age of the drains , i dealt mostly  in getting the drains ready for the adoption by the local water company this was part of the adoption plan that needed to be in place for council to take over the site , so are work had to be finished to a high standard for example for seven Trent to put the site on maintenance,  on the new builds I was dealing with I would say 50% of the surface water drains went into lagoons purpose built for the site , the remaining percentage was either joined on to existing drains already their or it was common still to go into a water course already near the site a large stream for example , this meant installing a head wall and usually a hydro break .

Back to the original topic of chances of gas etc in this sort of work sadly it’s common when cleaning out large drains, if you have to take the sucker lorry hose in their which you shouldn’t be but it happens , when disturbing the rotten vegetation matter this soon sets the 4x of , it’s usually sod the winch and tripod and bolt up the ladder, that is  if the stupid water board company have not made you get rid of them , many are bringing in policy’s that say for adoption any drain greater than 3m should not have a fixed ladder or runs in the chambers .

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2021, 05:39:02 pm »
... many are bringing in policy’s that say for adoption any drain greater than 3m should not have a fixed ladder...
WHA???  and that helps how???
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Online Tomferry

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #18 on: September 09, 2021, 05:53:08 pm »
... many are bringing in policy’s that say for adoption any drain greater than 3m should not have a fixed ladder...
WHA???  and that helps how???

It prevents anyone getting inside the drain system , I am only speculating but I assume it’s to do with that ?

Offline sinker

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #19 on: September 09, 2021, 07:57:53 pm »
... many are bringing in policy’s that say for adoption any drain greater than 3m should not have a fixed ladder...
WHA???  and that helps how???

It prevents anyone getting inside the drain system , I am only speculating but I assume it’s to do with that ?

Correct; and also ensures that anyone entering the system has the correct access gear with them when they get there i.e ladder, tripod, winch, harness, gas monitor, escape set etc etc

Ah, well, now, you see...erm...

Offline mrodoc

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2021, 09:55:07 am »
I think water should be part of infrastructure and not in the hands of profit making organizations who are prepared to cut corners. We take clean water for granted too much I think. On the plus side there are success stories. At Hope's Nose in Torbay there used to a massive sewage outfall. I dived there a number of times in the 80's and 90's but not many did! The place stank and the slick on the surface encompassed an offshore rock only a hundred metres or so from the outfall. Only mullet fishermen could be seen there! I am pleased to say the outfall only takes storm water now and I dived that rock last year which was crawling with crawfish and other marine life.   

Offline Brains

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2021, 11:59:25 am »
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b2/water-and-sewerage-company-effluent-discharges-supply-chain-failure-rps-b?fbclid=IwAR3DtFn2uxxrprS75SGBlD2225k4e75rKhzl5wrwByNjlWR5_JdXBMYRMLw
Another link... Looks like the days of dead rivers and toxic beaches are coming back.
Never mind all in the infrastructure issues as highlighted above - important though they are - the discharge of untreated effluent will have a huge impact
How long until the "Great Stink" (non-political) returns to the Thames? No need to worry about the shell fish industry not being able to export, if any are still in work they wont be able to achieve health standards  >:(

Offline Cantclimbtom

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Re: Sewage dumping to be allowed
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2021, 01:02:52 pm »
... Only mullet fishermen could be seen there! ...

Like this guy?
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