Car batteries and Water

Stupot

Active member
I am no mechanic so don't shout at me  :cautious:

Would anyone see any complications other than the weight and pysically carrying a car battery to a dig, such as
water as we would need to take it through 4 sumps.

Surely they must be waterproof, but at say -4 / -5m would they flood ?

BTW it's for driving a fan to extract CO2, so if there are any other ideals out there do tell  (y)

Cheers

Stu.
 

AndyF

New member
The construction of car batteries varies a lot, and this affects suitability. Cheap ones have a plate construction, sloshing around in liquid acid. These are very vulnerable to drops & bashes bending the plates internally, or (worse) shorting them resultsing in exlosions...  Better ones have a gel elecrolyte, and more solid construction, and these are more robust.

A much simpler idea is to run cheap plastic sink pipe to your face, and run it into a box at the the other end, like an ammo box. Place a couple of buring night lights in it (with suitable holes), and let the convection do the work. It DOES work :)

You need a very small purge of air to keep a face workable from CO2, so no need to go over the top with fans etc. if you go electric.  Couple the size of PC Power supply fans will do the job fine.
 

Stupot

Active member
AndyF said:
A much simpler idea is to run cheap plastic sink pipe to your face, and run it into a box at the the other end, like an ammo box. Place a couple of buring night lights in it (with suitable holes), and let the convection do the work. It DOES work :)

To extract the CO2 ?
 
Apart from the expense, have thought about gel lead acid batteries which are smaller than car batteries? They can be moved in seal-tight food containers.
As I understand it, if the battery capacity (Ah) is about 10 times that the fan which the fan takes then it won't bugger shortened the battery's life.
BTW how are you going to recharge the car battery?
 
T

The Badger

Guest
AndyF said:
A much simpler idea is to run cheap plastic sink pipe to your face, and run it into a box at the the other end, like an ammo box. Place a couple of burring night lights in it (with suitable holes), and let the convection do the work. It DOES work :)

There are a few solution pockets that assist in venting the dig in that it is workable on a weekly basis yet for just a few hours at any one time. How effective would the 'candles in the tin' be in extending the working time of each session as I cant see them working efficiently enough to keep a dig with three people puffing away indefinitely?

 
T

The Masked Hobit

Guest
cap 'n chris said:
When everything is finished with who will ensure it is brought out again?.....

...cant you just bury them under the huge pile of spent carbide? (y)
 

Stupot

Active member
The Masked Hobit said:
cap 'n chris said:
When everything is finished with who will ensure it is brought out again?.....

...cant you just bury them under the huge pile of spent carbide? (y)

No that would be bad Mr Hobbit, I will take it out along with the Sump 1 rope  ;)

Stu.
 

AndyF

New member
Stupot said:
AndyF said:
A much simpler idea is to run cheap plastic sink pipe to your face, and run it into a box at the the other end, like an ammo box. Place a couple of buring night lights in it (with suitable holes), and let the convection do the work. It DOES work :)

To extract the CO2 ?


Yes, the candle produces heat, which rises, sucking air in at the far end of the pipe. A bit like ventilation furnaces used in coal mines but on a small scale.

its just to generate a draught by convection
 

whitelackington

New member
wot about a double hand operated air pump, pull me push me.
have the pump handle in dig site with the two hoses going through the sump, then every now and again stop digging and pump, fresh air will be sucked in and stale will leave.
Mind u , I don't know if such a device exists but I spect it does. :coffee:
 

SamT

Moderator
Im with andy on this.

You only require a bit of a draught to displace some of the co2 created by your work.

A convection chimney will 'suck' the CO2 away.

Prehaps just some garden hose, (or better still - the 19mm office fire hose) through the last sump.

How about this for a design, Stick your Candles in a mud bank somewhere, bury the hose in the mud/clay so that the end protudes up just by the candles. Cover the lot with a length of Soil pipe, as tall as is practable.

So long as there is a good seal around the base. The chimney effect should produce quite a pull. Certainly enough to remove any CO2 produced by your excertions.

Make sure the end of the hose is located at the lowest point in the dig, as this is where the CO2 will collect. It might be worth digging a small well for it to settle in - with the hose in the bottom.

I assume you'll be diving there, You could always take a pony cylinder full of air, give it a blast every so often.

Probably lighter than a car battery.
 

Peter Burgess

New member
Although the main point of the discussion is the mechanics of ventilation, and the potential problems of water, the sheer weight of a car battery should be thought about. Back in the days of Super-8 cine cameras I helped someone who wanted to make a film of the Surrey mines. The only practical lighting he could come up with then was a set of motor halogen bulbs run off a 12V car battery. The mines are basically horizontal dry passages, and on most trips, carrying the battery around was a challenge. We had it in a sturdy canvas bag, in which it fitted snugly. The strap was long enough to pass over a shoulder. In crawls we usually pushed and pulled it along the floor, which is smooth, with few protusions to cause problems. Sometime we had the services of the late Chris Sayle, who was built like an ox, and just hung the bag around his neck as he crawled along on hands and knees!

However, when we wanted to film in a remote section, which under normal circumstances would take a couple of hours to reach, we took the battery in a few days earlier, so we could get there quickly when we were filming.

I don't think we would have used a car battery if we had been taking it into somewhere more cave-like or vertical. The risk of dropping the thing and smashing the casing is one thing, and the sheer inconvenience of dragging it through awkward places might have put us off.

Nowadays I think there might be more convenient ways of getting 12V into a remote spot. Depending on the drain on the system, perhaps smaller 12V batteries might do the job. My lads little electric play car uses sealed 12V (I think) batteries which you could carry about far more easily than a car battery.

 

AndyF

New member
Yes, I'd rather carry a few D cells every trip than a car battery every tenth trip. If it is the wrong side of a sump this does not sound like a great idea!

 

Peter Burgess

New member
My lads' little car doesn't run on D-cells! It is a two-seater, with two electric motors to drive the rear wheels. The battery is about 15cm x 10 cm x 10 cm, and weighs something like 5 kg. I'm sure it would run a small fan for several hours, and it's sealed, so no worry about leaks etc.
 

Stupot

Active member
I like the idea of a convection chimney, think this could work quite well.

I was toying with the idea of taking a second 3ltr to the dig and just breathing from this until a better CO2 extraction system is installed, I reakon I could get 40 minutes  :-\

The actual dig face is probably only about 20 - 25m from the main streamway and we currently have a pipe and hand pump back to this point, but this is pumping air in and not taking the CO2 out, being led flat out at the lowest point means you are next deep in the CO2   :yucky:

I could get the 12v car battery there, although I maybe bottom walking in the Sumps! but after reading the replys I think I maybe barking up the wrong tree.

Sucking the CO2 out from the dig face is a good thing, but what about replacing the used air (For example the pony suggested by Sam) ?

Stu.
 

SamT

Moderator
Im sure there will be enough air knocking about. There will be enough 'leakage' around in the cave. tiny fissures in the rock etc. If you sucking the CO2 out, then you'll be creating a vacuum effect and this will suck air in from other parts of the cave.

Id just set up the convection thingy - then try digging, if your still having problems - look at modding it with a battery opperated fan in a box on the end of the pipe.

If your hell bent on using a battery, you can get 12 v moterbike batteries. These a gel sealed. about 3*4*5 inch big. Not too heavy or expensive - but possibly right up your street.
Or you could invest in some rechargable Nicad or NiMH 'C' cells, 10 of these gives you 12V. (or get hold of a 12V recargable battery for a drill off ebay - bosch dewalt etc).
Im sure there are better options that lugging in a car battery. Ive just put a new one in my TDi and it was bloody heavy.
 
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