cavemanmike
Well-known member
But to be fair climber use as snapgates regularly.you just need to be completely aware of what you are doing and the environment you are in. Horse’s for coarses
Falling on Cows Tails
- Thread starter TheBitterEnd
- Start date
cap n chris
Well-known member
I think we can all see who had a bee in their bonnet and it wasn't me. I am happy to use the expression Cord of Shame; others don't seem to like it quite so much.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Unequivocal statement followed by a caveat. Hmm.
It occurs to me I don’t actually know what the CoS is. You mean a piece of static rope? I don’t actually see the problem with that, I only use dynamic because I want a third cowstail using the krab. I can’t see it makes any difference in the event of a fall on two jammers. The croll either rips or it doesn’t. If the sheath rips you will very likely just come a halt on the top jammer whilst looking at some nice core in front of you. You will need new undies. I never use a single jammer for security except on a ladder, and I avoid them like the plague. Although I do use 8mm dynamic in the fond hope of a micro improvement in that scenario.
Of course if you insist on rigging with the potential for very high FF if a belay fails, things might get more tasty, which a dynamic link won’t help with either I imagine. Not using a single screwgate for a rebelay is something I have come to favour. We always used to rig mostly on maillons, but when it moved to P bolts I used a screwgate more on rebelays, but then decided that wasn’t so wise and started taking some maillons again. The twist ones being a refinement for P bolts.
Last edited:
Loki
Active member
I’m still totally bamboozled as to what you meant by cord of shame. I’m Not having a go. Are you saying people are wrong using a connection to thier top ascender to hang on, or did you mean some people use inappropriate connection cords as they might fall on it? I’m totally aware that my 8mm semi static connection is maybe a little ad hoc but I know it’s stronger than the sheath on the rope.
For what it’s worth I use screwgates everywhere except my short cowstail where I value the narrow profile of the wire gate body to get into some hangers full of maillons.
For runners, never for belays. If clipping a bolt, there's always a short sling so the krab on the rope isn't constrained. Runners are protection, the rock is the primary. Runners are usually clipped with one hand, often in a hurry; a caver should not need to clip a cowstail quickly to avoid an imminent fall.
cap n chris
Well-known member
I actually thought I'd explained the shame behind the CoS quite succinctly earlier (above); European cavers arrange their SRT rig in a late C20th/early C21st fashion whereas many UK cavers have their SRT rig according to mid C20th fashion and the shame is that UK cavers don't appear to be progressive and able/capable/happy/keen to adapt/improve whereas other countries' cavers do/have. That's the shame behind the Cord of Shame. Didn't I mention this earlier? If you refer to twenty+ year old caving techniques manual(s), and the more recent ones, you'll find the SRT architecture/layout doesn't match well with what people continue to commonly use in the UK. In an amateur/club setting there's no law(s) against "doing your own thing" (or rather "doing what everyone else does" - arguably an oxymoron of sorts) but I would imagine that it might be an interesting conversation trying to justify it.
Actually rather gobsmacked that I need to justify my viewpoint(s) when the polar opposite is obviously the case; you guys need to justify why you're entrenched with a methodology which everyone else isn't doing any more because it's not particularly good.
Last edited:
cap n chris
Well-known member
If you took a 2nd jammer with you, you wouldn't need a ladder at all; two jammers weigh considerably less than a ladder, and a double pitch length piece of rope.
ChrisJC
Well-known member
I am not sure which system I use, but I suspect the 'old' one. Certainly it's not changed since the early 90's when I learned SRT.
I am quite happy to stick with it because I am very used to it, and it's instinctive. I know exactly where I am.
For example, I am sticking with a Petzl Stop, because I think I am probably not going to 'panic squeeze' having not done so in nearly 30 years of usage. Even though there are probably superior descending devices that I might use if I was starting out now.
Furthermore, not everybody is in the same environment - I do most of my SRT in slate mines, often bolting up, so the requirements are somewhat different to vertical caving.
I am open to small changes however, provided they are not going to upset my built in knowledge of the rig. Hence following this thread.
Chris.
I am quite happy to stick with it because I am very used to it, and it's instinctive. I know exactly where I am.
For example, I am sticking with a Petzl Stop, because I think I am probably not going to 'panic squeeze' having not done so in nearly 30 years of usage. Even though there are probably superior descending devices that I might use if I was starting out now.
Furthermore, not everybody is in the same environment - I do most of my SRT in slate mines, often bolting up, so the requirements are somewhat different to vertical caving.
I am open to small changes however, provided they are not going to upset my built in knowledge of the rig. Hence following this thread.
Chris.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Valid. That's aok.
But..
Question: should newcomers to caving be inducted in the more updated methods or the ones which have existed for fifty plus years? If it's the latter I'll retire from bothering being an instructor. Having a duty of care incumbent upon me is a fcuking royal pain in the ass and I welcome no longer being required to legally or morally fulfil it, frankly.
Loki
Active member
I’m not going to pull it to pieces so to speak but why not post a picture of what the ‘up to date’ or morally superior method now is? I’ve totally lost it now with this thread. The only debate seems to have been how many tails people use and whether or not they have screwgates on the ends. Someone mentioned a petzl diagram- maybe a link to the instructions they are in on their website.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Either no-one reads what I write or no-one understands it or people are being wilfully obtuse. Bored of this now.
georgenorth
Active member
Totally off topic, but this isn’t true. Building belays with snapgates is totally normal (and perfectly safe). The only time I use a screw gate is when the protection is out of reach and the rope/s are used to equalise the gear.
Fjell posted it on previous page of this thread (clip long cowstail to hand jammer then clip footloop):
Falling on Cows Tails
ChrisB: My point stands, however, that I think cap n chris was using it as a quote, not a direct criticism. Bearing in mind Jason's comment: You've expressed this view once or twice (or 20 times?) before . . . So, cap n chris, were you winding us up by your use of the word 'shame'? Were you...
ukcaving.com
Last edited:
I don’t think the normal French rig has materially changed in 30+ years with the exception of using a Pantin. So I am not sure what “modern” means.
Not only do I have a first generation Pantin (and a newer one), I also have the Pompe. I did once actually use the latter to derig something fairly deep where we ended up with 4-5 bags each. Even more surprisingly, it worked. I am keeping it for when I need it to get out with no bags.
Not only do I have a first generation Pantin (and a newer one), I also have the Pompe. I did once actually use the latter to derig something fairly deep where we ended up with 4-5 bags each. Even more surprisingly, it worked. I am keeping it for when I need it to get out with no bags.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
You'd hate my SRT kit
My Rig (on a Freino) goes on a little snapgate dogbone, but I have an extra dyneema link from the Freino to a maillon on little dyneema loop to the leg loop (on a Petzl Aven harness). My 'cord of pride' goes on a maillon on the left dyneema leg-loop thing. I then have a little dyneema Y-hang thing between my legs off both maillons for clipping heavy bags into when prussiking.
Still much less messy than the time someone forgot their central maillon (but only discovered this after an hour's walk to the cave), so I lent them mine, used a Croll along the spine of an oval (not ideal) but then backed everything up with dyneema through the clip-in points and hung the descender in a dyneema Y-hang to avoid unnecessary cross-loading (minimising it to just the Croll which would just take body-loading AND everything backed up in macrame dyneema...)
Of course, it helps that (despite a few extra kg I need to get rid of at some point) I've rather smaller than many other cavers; I rarely need to remove any SRT kit for a squeeze, for example...
I also would never recommend anyone else uses my SRT kit, and I make a point of saying this whenever I am teaching SRT! I use what works for me. I teach a simple, safe basic starting point. People can then do what they want once they know what they are doing.
