Cave Rescue Procedures (continued)

[mikem]

Does that mean majority of rescues are from OFD during home meets..? 😉

I doubt they are making judgements. More likely distracted by other calls on their time that they know how to deal with. Unless it's a vulnerable adult/ child they generally won't worry about a missing person for at least 24 hours

 

[rm128]

All depends if they factor ample “problem-solving time” into their call-out. If they do, then once the call-out passes you know there is something wrong. Whereas the other alternative would make sense to wait and see for a bit. All depends what was factored into the call-out time you see and it might be rare to know this, so prepare for the worst and hope for the best is the way to go.

It would be great if the 999 responders had the bandwidth to factor all of this in. I suspect they don't, especially if any CRO callout must go through the police. Obviously I don't know how the original call went in this specific case. If the callout time of 22:30 was mentioned in the original call at 22:35, then I just don't see how we can reasonably expect a quick response. I'd be surprised if even a missing child would get much of a response after 5 mins.

Out of interest, I wonder what the general view is here on when the emergency services should even be called for a missed callout time. I have certainly never expected it to be after 5 mins. I guess, as @Edwardov says, it depends on knowledge of what has been factored into the set callout time. Just curious.

 

[JoshW]

Out of interest, I wonder what the general view is here on when the emergency services should even be called for a missed callout time. I have certainly never expected it to be after 5 mins

When I leave a call out it’s ’if You haven’t heard from me by this time, raise all hell’ I don’t want other peoples judgement to be needed and potentially make my bad day out even worse

 

[Babyhagrid]

When I leave a call out it’s ’if You haven’t heard from me by this time, raise all hell’ I don’t want other peoples judgement to be needed and potentially make my bad day out even worse

To echo josh.
The callout time is when I want the police to be called.
That's the point of it.
Means that there's no misunderstanding at all.

 

[Rhys]

You just need to be absolutely clear what is expected from the person you're relying on. I might say, "I expect to be out at 8pm. If you haven't heard from me by 10pm, call rescue."

The unwritten rule with the SWCC callout board was that 1 hour after the time, rescue starts - which allows for minor cock-ups and avoids some false calls, but should be factored into people's plans.

 

[Babyhagrid]

At my uni club we teach, that when callout time comes. To phone all the members of the group to make sure they're not out and then call 999 ask for (appropriate regional) police and then cave rescue. Fortunately we haven't tried it on anger yet.

 

[rm128]

I might say, "I expect to be out at 8pm. If you haven't heard from me by 10pm, call rescue."

This is my own approach. They key then (for me) would be to stress the earlier time in any 999 call. Personally, I would only mention the later time directly to the relevant CRO.

 

[mikem]

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[andrewmcleod]

You just need to be absolutely clear what is expected from the person you're relying on. I might say, "I expect to be out at 8pm. If you haven't heard from me by 10pm, call rescue."

The unwritten rule with the SWCC callout board was that 1 hour after the time, rescue starts - which allows for minor cock-ups and avoids some false calls, but should be factored into people's plans.

It wasn't unwritten, it was written on the board. Fortunately (with the demise of the board in question) that SWCC-specific rule has gone and normality has spread even to the SWCC callout board (where a tablet for the Digital Destination Board has been installed).

 

[Rhys]

I've used the digital destination board. Do you know if the people that monitor it call the rescue team direct, if possible, and not 999.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Most callouts based around the SWCC area never go through 999. The rescue team get to know via the callout board and the team will "ask permission" from, or in actual fact tell, the police that they are taking action. There's no reason CRO couldn't do this if they knew something was occurring - maybe they did. They don't have to sit on their hands waiting to be called.

Pretty sure this happens in practice. Teams don't go from 0 to 60 in zero time; particularly for a missed callout there will be a certain amount of information-gathering time while people get phoned up etc. Someone might be sent round to the entrance to check cars etc. before any full callout happens.

The Police should immediately be handing cave rescue calls over for the experts to decide the course of action, not trying to judge for themselves whether it requires urgent attention, or not. But this breakdown in communication between 999 and the teams has being going on for decades, even before mobile phones were in common use.

It's important not to get too precious about this. The police are a statutory service. Cave rescue teams are not. So it is entirely reasonable of the Police to make a proper assessment of the facts presented before deciding on a course of action. In practice of course, cave rescue teams have proved over the years that they provide an excellent competent service underground. There is certainly no 'right' for teams to carry out underground rescues - instead cave rescue teams have earned the trust of the police etc. and are thus permitted to act on the police's behalf. I assume the police remain responsible for that rescue and so I fully expect them to a) make sure of the facts and keep up to date on progress and b) trust that the cave rescue teams will do a good job and keep the police fully informed.

 

[andrewmcleod]

I've used the digital destination board. Do you know if the people that monitor it call the rescue team direct, if possible, and not 999.

Some of them are, I believe, on the rescue team. I don't believe the rescue team has any formal involvement in the DDB itself.

The SMWCRT website is pretty unambiguous - 999 is the route to initiating a callout. I think we should make our callouts in the form requested by the rescue teams themselves. There are good reasons for this. Any 999 call will be answered, will be recorded, will go through when you only have signal on the 'wrong' network, and will be acted on (albeit on occasions with a delay).
Phoning up random controllers of a rescue team _may_ work, but is not reliable, is not approved, and is outside of the expected practice. Thus 999 first and foremost.

 

[ian.p]

To address a few things:
1. There is an issue with call handlers not being familiar with the procedure for calling out cave and mountain rescue teams it is something rescue teams are aware of and one of the big stumbling blocks is the turn over of call handling staff.
2. Call handlers will not be triaging the severity of a cave rescue incident (that is the cave rescue controllers job) the delay will be down to the handler not knowing how to pass the incident on. I have encountered this when trying to call out for rescues and I am a member of UWFRA there is something uniquely frustrating about struggling to call yourself out.
3. Whilst it can and has happened that multiple cave rescues occur in the same patch at the same time its not common. You are likely to be the most interesting thing going on as far as a cave rescue team is concerned. It does take a few minutes for the rescue team controller to get up to speed, turn there computer on / get out of bed and put some pants on if its the middle of the night but if you've heard nothing after half an hour or so it is probably worth hassling the police again. You might get a different call handler who knows what to do.
4. Do be prepared to ask for the handler to get their supervisor, persevere they cant hang up on you! if you are really struggling be aware that in the dales if they really cant get there heads around cave rescue you can ask for mountain rescue and as all the teams are both cave and mountain rescue you will get the same people! If you don't receive contact from a warden/controller in a timely fashion as above don't be afraid to ring again and chase them up!
5. Teams wont deploy until they have been tasked by the police this is due to insurance. However particularly if you are having difficulty with the call handlers a heads up to a rescue team member is not a bad thing to do as they can 1. give advice re getting the police to action the call out and 2. we can alert the team and start getting prepared. However this is not the way things should work and for good reason the principles of how to call out a rescue team are not going change from calling out through the police. Not everyone knows a local cave rescue team member, the system should work and I can fully understand why folk should be pissed off that it falls over so often.

 

[Tim Pickering]

Thanks for clarifying @thehungrytroglobite. We have, indeed, all made mistakes. Hopefully lessons have been learned.

With regard to the emergency service response, perhaps we need to bear in mind that this was a group of (presumably) adults 5 minutes overdue in an environment were adults get lost all the time. Are we really expecting the emergency services to give this top priority? Of course I would expect things to be different if an actual serious incident had been confirmed. Just my view. I'm really not having a go at any individuals.

And how do you confirm whether a serious incident has occured prior to a rescue being initiated and the situation underground assessed?

 

[Fjell]

There has always been this big thing made about the Manchester Bypass, but in conditions short of biblical flood the place they really to know first is how to get out WR from the streamway or Stop Pot. Now WR is open again that might be worth highlighting on the website. It’s a much easier route with only one junction that isn’t hard to remember as it’s the only waterfall.

 

[langcliffe]

There has always been this big thing made about the Manchester Bypass, but in conditions short of biblical flood the place they really to know first is how to get out WR from the streamway or Stop Pot. Now WR is open again that might be worth highlighting on the website. It’s a much easier route with only one junction that isn’t hard to remember as it’s the only waterfall.

I agree. MBP is great fun, but no longer the best flood exit. Four Ways Chamber and WR is the best option for that. When the MBP was first discovered in the late 1960s by MUSS, the WR entrance hadn't been opened up.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

Pretty sure this happens in practice.

It didn't on Saturday. Official information gathering started at 2350 (ie. that's when CRO phoned the person with the call out), despite the fact that CRO had been tipped off at 2235. Some prep had started, and some checking of places where the group might be (like the caving hut), but the actual information gathering didn't happen until after the police had called in.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

It didn't on Saturday. Official information gathering started at 2350 (ie. that's when CRO phoned the person with the call out), despite the fact that CRO had been tipped off at 2235. Some prep had started, and some checking of places where the group might be (like the caving hut), but the actual information gathering didn't happen until after the police had called in.

Sorry, I meant CRO were tipped off at 2300. Police were initially called at 2235. Too many numbers in my head! XD

 

[mikem]

And how do you confirm whether a serious incident has occured prior to a rescue being initiated and the situation underground assessed?

In most of those cases someone usually finds their way out before call out time to kickstart the rescue.

 

[rm128]

And how do you confirm whether a serious incident has occured prior to a rescue being initiated and the situation underground assessed?

For parties of more than 2 or 3, a serious incident may well be reported long before the callout time. In that case, I would expect the whole process of instigating a rescue to happen sooner than it did in this case. I’m sure we would all agree that the system needs fixing if that did not happen.

In other cases it obviously may not be possible to confirm the presence or absence of a serious incident. I’m certainly not suggesting that there should be no rescue in such a case. I’m simply trying to keep this particular incident in perspective. Cavers were overdue, and a successful rescue was initiated. Did it take an hour longer than some of us would have liked? It seems so. I am pragmatic enough to not be surprised by the time taken.