Cave Rescue Procedures (continued)

[aricooperdavis]

it doesn't make a lot of sense for the mixed teams to have a members in the main team who _only_ do underground rescues which are less than 10% of all callouts

Doesn't it? I guess it depends what you mean by "main team" (which raises it's own questions about what the purpose of CRO should be).

SAR teams are, quite understandably, good at what they train to be good at, and they should therefore train to do the things they're most likely to have to do. Mixed teams, therefore, have a choice between either training all members to be good at both surface and underground SAR work, or to allow different people in the team to train to be good at different things (or, I suppose, to not be very good at underground SAR work).

I think it makes sense for mixed teams to allow members to join and train to do underground SAR work only. Otherwise you're expecting cavers who want to volunteer to do cave rescue in a group called "Cave Rescue Organisation" to sacrifice massive amounts of free time to do something that isn't cave rescue.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

I think this is a really big issue at the moment, and I'm glad it has been highlighted. When I moved to the Dales, and was living 4 minutes from the CRO depot, I was told that I couldn't join CRO because I couldn't drive. This didn't make much sense to me because I lived with a CRO team member, and every time he went on a rescue I was sitting on my arse at home. It would have been very easy to get in the car too and my not being able to drive wouldn't have limited my ability to get to most rescues. Likewise, I know of another caver who recently moved to the Dales and was told that the team was full. This is very strange, since the number of competent cavers in CRO is limited. If there was a call out to the bottom of Gingling, and five of those team members were away, then there would be a very limited number of people that could get there in swift time. That is obviously what the caver's list is for, but the caver's list gets much less training than the main team (less than most other cave rescue teams), seems to take a while to call out, and many people on it live a long way away. It's odd for the team to be turning away young, fit cavers that could be very valuable. The same goes for CRO not allowing cavers based Kendal way to join the team, it takes longer to get to Bullpot Farm from Settle than it does from Kendal so why not allow cavers in Kendal to join. Considering the proportion of call outs in Ease Gill this would be very useful indeed. I found it interesting to hear members of CRO's surface team criticising cavers (specifically, those involved in the rescue last weekend) despite the person criticising them clearly not being a caver or knowing much about caving. Perhaps CRO should consider changing its name, since it no longer seems like a 'Cave Rescue Organisation' these days, but more of a Mountain Rescue Team with a Little Caving Side Hustle.

 

[mikem]

MREW insurance has changed to say the teams can't take non members along on practices anymore, which is what most teams used to do regularly.

Need to be careful what is posted on a public forum as some mountain rescue bods are looking for excuses to reduce the number of teams that get funding, although criticising anyone on a rescue is against policy.

 

[Fjell]

It is 4 years since covid started and it’s quite likely there is an element of knowledge loss for clubs who turn members over every 3-4 years. No doubt this will resolve itself.

The lot last year who went from Lanc to the WR climbs and back without finding County showed commendable grit I thought. They’ll go far.

 

[Babyhagrid]

The lot last year who went from Lanc to the WR climbs and back without finding County showed commendable grit I thought. They’ll go far

Two of them are probationary on rescue teams now!

 

[Edz]

Caving incidents may be less than 10% of CRO callouts BUT Saturdays cave rescue took more 'volunteer hours' than the last 6 mountain rescues combined .

 

[hyweldavies]

Rescue teams aren't individuals. They are official organisations and therefore have to operate within a legal frame work.

As such they have a legally enforced duty of care to members and others.

This not only requires the OK from the statutory agency (police) to act and their insurance etc, but also equipment meeting the regs.. LOLER etc and appropriate risk assessment

I have to quibble with the logic / wording. I stress this isn't me being an internet smart arse, but it matters when doubtful information on "duty of care", and "we have to do such and such", plus comments about insurance are stated as facts, which then get repeated. We had this some years ago with the hoo ha over BCRA/BCA insurance.

I think you are conflating several things, even if some are at least partly true, and wrongly suggesting a logic argument that one follows the next

First sentence "operating within legal framework" - fine. I'm no expert but that's also my understanding. As stated by others the notion is that the Teams are doing the rescue "for" the police so to speak

Have a "duty of care" to team members and others" also fair enough, almost certainly the case for many purposes. However a "legally enforced" duty of care makes little sense to me in the context of whether or not there's a "duty of care". You either have a duty of care or you don't. My quibble is that it seems to be suggesting that "legally enforced" is a specific thing we should give extra weight to, so more than a quibble on wording. I'm pretty well read on such things and that's not a phrase I recall seeing before


Your third point "requires OK from police to act" etc. This doesn't follow from the duty of care point at all as far as I can see. I could believe it "requires OK from police to act on their behalf" But it is a big step from that to say they must, essentially stand by doing nothing until the police say it's OK. By the same logic another group shouldn't / couldn't help if they came across a victim underground, or maybe it's OK if they are not members of the team. Of course, I know you're not suggesting any such daft behaviour, but I'm making the point to challenge the statement statement about being unable to act until the police have OK'd it. As Rhys mentioned upthread, in Wales it was common practice to kick off with the rescue whilst informing the police that was what was happening, maybe nominally "asking for an OK" but that was more a conceit than anything.

Of course, it is fair enough of rescue teams choose to have various insurances, and I do understand there's a legal set up whereby they "do rescues on behalf the the police" but let's not get mixed up by saying this somehow follows from any notion of "duty of care" which is a quite specific thing, applying to all sorts of things, often everyday things at that

Sorry of I'm being harsh in my comment but I read up extensively on tort law some years back when the old BCRA scheme was coming adrift and I heard all sorts of claims and factoids that made no sense and turned out had no grounding in law, and yet still got repeated by others as facts which then influenced policy, hence my tendency to quibble when things are stated as facts.

Anyhow, due credit to those running the various teams, as my own contribution has only been to turn out when needed and attend the odd practice, albeit over 40 odd years

 

[andrewmcleod]

I think this is a really big issue at the moment, and I'm glad it has been highlighted. When I moved to the Dales, and was living 4 minutes from the CRO depot, I was told that I couldn't join CRO because I couldn't drive.

I can understand this is frustrating, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a rescue team to want prospective members to have a car and a license unfortunately.

Have you tried to join the cavers' list?

 

[andrewmcleod]

This is very strange, since the number of competent cavers in CRO is limited. If there was a call out to the bottom of Gingling, and five of those team members were away, then there would be a very limited number of people that could get there in swift time.

Most of the full team members in CRO are cavers. Many have decades of cave rescue experience. There are excellent cavers on the cavers' list, and lots of experience in UWFRA and Swaledale as well.
And if you do injure yourself at the bottom of Gingling, you are being thoroughly unreasonable if you are expecting rescue to arrive in swift time...
(yes someone could rush down the cave but that's the easy bit of a rescue and doesn't necessarily achieve very much if not part of a plan)

I think there are probably worse caves than Gingling - we actually did that on a cavers' list team-building training social weekend thing a few years ago but the reality is there are very very few rescues down hard caves and no rescue team in the country can deal with them on their own.

Most rescues are in the major trade route caves - as you point out, the regular rescues in the easier parts of Easegill.

In the event of a major rescue like that other teams will be called - like UWFRA and Swaledale were called (albeit they didn't have to go underground in the end). The cavers' list was put on standby but was not required.

The cavers' list do (I think) two weekends a year with training on either one or both days on the weekend. This is comparable to some cave rescue teams, and they would be working with the full team members anyway.

 

[CavingForLemons]

I can understand this is frustrating, but I don't think it's unreasonable for a rescue team to want prospective members to have a car and a license unfortunately.

Have you tried to join the cavers' list?

I think it's somewhat unreasonable not to consider applicants on their individual merits. In the thehungrytroglobite's case, she lives with her partner, who I know to be a very active member of CRO. Therefore, it's hard to understand why it would be an inconvenience to have them travelling to the vast majority of cave and mountain rescues together.

I do agree that in a lot of cases it would be necessary to have prospective members who were able to drive, but having a blanket rule against non-drivers feels wrong.

 

[Babyhagrid]

From personal experience in south Wales . A couple of my friends are uni have been accepted as probationary members despite them not being able to drive as our group at uni has quite a few member already who do drive.
(Also most incidents seem to happen when all the students are already at the caving huts already, negating the need to drive 😂)

 

[ian.p]

Andrew: there is a shortage of fit capable core team cave rescue members in the dales. That’s the long and short of it. All 3 teams put together fielded about 15 cavers for the job last weekend that was everyone core team wise. Compare that with cave only teams who can easily field twice that number of core team members to a job and I know I’d rather have my accident in Derbyshire. There are matters of geography and politics which have contributed to the problem but cave rescue teams in the dales should not consider themselves “full” when it comes to cavers. This is very much own personal and contentious opinion and does not represent the views of my own quite challenging to join team.

 

[Samouse1]

Andrew: there is a shortage of fit capable core team cave rescue members in the dales. That’s the long and short of it. All 3 teams put together fielded about 15 cavers for the job last weekend that was everyone core team wise. Compare that with cave only teams who can easily field twice that number of core team members to a job and I know I’d rather have my accident in Derbyshire. There are matters of geography and politics which have contributed to the problem but cave rescue teams in the dales should not consider themselves “full” when it comes to cavers. This is very much own personal and contentious opinion and does not represent the views of my own quite challenging to join team.

There are a handful more cavers in CRO than were AVAILABLE for the shout, but you’re unlikely to get a full complement available at any given time

Echoing the statement at the end of this being my personal views not the teams.

 

[Fjell]

It does seem odd that CRO won’t take people from Kendal, it’s the nearest town - certainly much quicker to get to than Skipton. Presumably Sedbergh and Dent are also too far away - because they are not quicker than Kendal either.

So basically you need to live in Ingleton, Clapham or Settle? No wonder there are issues. It’s mostly retirees. Not many graduate jobs for people in their 20’s and 30’s, that’s for sure. The biggest employer in the Yorkshire Dales NP is Sedbergh School, followed by the dairy at Hawes I believe, to give some idea.

 

[andrewmcleod]

EDIT: apologies, cavers list is currently closed to new applications.

Rather than arguing about things which are way, way above my pay grade and with people with decades more rescue experience than me (ian.p), I'm going to try and divert all this energy into something useful

There are something like 50 (I think?) people on the cavers' list. You do not need to live in the immediate area to join the cavers' list. The cavers' list is not full AFAIK. Wharfedale are supposed to be running the next spring training I think although I haven't gotten dates yet; CRO are running the autumn training and there is a date for that. There is also supposed to be a 'social' caving weekend in the summer (dates to be determined).

So I would encourage all fit and experienced cavers to think about applying to join the cavers' list which provides a valuable and important resource for cave rescue in the North (plus the training is fun)

PS since joining CRO I have 'attended' (which in some cases includes turning up and then going home) 132 callouts, of which only 2 were caving callouts (and one of those was the George OFD rescue where I was already staying at SWCC). Somehow they never happen when I am at home... the only conclusion is that everyone in the Dales is so terrified of the concept of me being involved with their potential rescue (not unreasonably) that they all stay home

 

[JoshW]

So I would encourage all fit and experienced cavers to think about applying to join the cavers' list which provides a valuable and important resource for cave rescue in the North (plus the training is fun)

I’ve even struggled to get onto this. Emailed in October, still not heard back 🤷🏼‍♂️

 

[andrewmcleod]

I’ve even struggled to get onto this. Emailed in October, still not heard back 🤷🏼‍♂️

Well that's not ideal I'll admit... I'd try again and I'll message you.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

So I would encourage all fit and experienced cavers to think about applying to join the cavers' list

I think one of the problems with the cavers' list is the lack of training (not quite the same as DCRO, for example), and most of them live over an hour away. It's definitely a great resource but perhaps one that more time & energy should be given to.

I also have struggled to get onto the cavers' list. I was told, once again, that I couldn't join because I can't drive. I was then told that if I wrote an 'appeal' of some sort it would be discussed at a future meeting, and this whole ordeal made me feel like it was more of a rigorous job application, like I was having to beg to join, rather than like I was wanted/needed on the list. It also seemed odd that I was told I can't join the team but could potentially join the cavers list. Since I live with Samouse, who is in CRO, if the cavers list were called out later in the evening I would be less likely to get to a rescue than if I had just left the house alongside him. It seems to be the case that the cavers list get called out a while after the main team, which leads to further delay.

I think as good as the cavers list is it is also great to have a team of young, fit, skilled cavers. Even if my not being able to drive is a genuine barrier, I can't see the reason for my friend (who can drive) being told he can't join because the team is 'full'. There are indeed quite a few cavers in CRO, but many are retired now, less fit and don't cave very often anymore. Should 50% of the younger, fit cavers in CRO be away (for example, on expeditions in the summer) there would be a noticeable shortage. Yes, other teams and the cavers list would be called out to help compensate for this, but does it not make sense to allow more cavers to join the team so that is less of a risk? Especially those living nearby that can get to caves fairly quickly - including Kendal and Kirkby.

 

[aricooperdavis]

Volunteer time and effort is not limitless, and team members can only be expected to do so much training. As such I'm not convinced that it's sensible to require volunteers who want to do cave rescue to also do surface rescue. I think they should be able to (I'm a member of a surface team and an underground team), but I don't think that they should be required to.

I also think it works the other way around, I don't think it's sensible to require volunteers who want to do surface rescue to also do underground rescue. I don't think this requirement often exists though, because there are far more surface callouts than underground callouts, so it's almost always underground volunteers who end up having to spend the majority of their time doing stuff they don't really want to, and rarely the other way around.

I'm not saying CRO should rename itself, or kick out those interested in surface SAR work to form their own team. There is clearly a lot of overlap in equipment, skills, and personel, between the two disciplines, so it makes sense to keep them under the same organisation. Why buy multiple vehicles, compete for funding etc? But it also makes sense to have different membership requirements for those different disciplines, because they are substantially different. It doesn't make sense to require caving callout members to get to the base within 20 minutes, like a Coastguard team might, because cave rescues are (generally) slow. It doesn't make sense to require surface callout members to have their own caving kit, because they're not going to need it on the hill.

More to the point, what's the benefit of making caving callout members do all the surface stuff if they want to be part of the team? I appreciate that there's a cavers' list that they can join, but given that they don't get called out until the full team (and neighbouring teams?!) have been found to be insufficient, then that's not really part of the team, is it?

 

[Ian Ball]

Is there a caver's Z list for those who are never free haven't been caving for months but still like to think they would be useful?