A second entrance to Ogof Draenen?

[graham]

I have to say that I personally am not looking forward to raking up all of the old arguments, with the associated time and effort that this will inevitably entail. However the vehicle for this discussion has to be a face to face meeting of all of the interested bodies, ie. the PDCMG, and not an online forum that only embraces a minority.

Those associated with PDCMG seem irritated that this issue will not go away.  They should not really be surprised that by implementing a policy strongly disagreed with by a significant proportion (quite possibly a majority) of cavers that the issue persists.  We are talking about the current and future management of what is probably our biggest UK cave system.  Cavers have a right to express their views on this and will continue to do so.  Sooner or later PDCMG may have to conclude that their single entrance policy simply isn't tenable.  The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points and PDCMG cannot veto every dig without causing acrimony.  Some caves are by their nature multi-entrance and no amount of committee resolutions can change that reality.  Read Jim Eyre's account of the days when the old BSA tried to control the then single entrance to what is now Lancaster-Easegill and failed.  Sometimes it's better to bend with the wind rather than peeing into it.

Andy

You seem to have left no room for the landowner to have a say in this. Interestingly enough I was reading Dave Judson's new account of Cymmie and the BSA recently and in it David notes how permission to dig at Cove Hole above Grassington has been consistently refused for the last sixty years.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

I have to say that I personally am not looking forward to raking up all of the old arguments, with the associated time and effort that this will inevitably entail. However the vehicle for this discussion has to be a face to face meeting of all of the interested bodies, ie. the PDCMG, and not an online forum that only embraces a minority.

Those associated with PDCMG seem irritated that this issue will not go away.  They should not really be surprised that by implementing a policy strongly disagreed with by a significant proportion (quite possibly a majority) of cavers that the issue persists.  We are talking about the current and future management of what is probably our biggest UK cave system.  Cavers have a right to express their views on this and will continue to do so.  Sooner or later PDCMG may have to conclude that their single entrance policy simply isn't tenable.  The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points and PDCMG cannot veto every dig without causing acrimony.  Some caves are by their nature multi-entrance and no amount of committee resolutions can change that reality.  Read Jim Eyre's account of the days when the old BSA tried to control the then single entrance to what is now Lancaster-Easegill and failed.  Sometimes it's better to bend with the wind rather than peeing into it.

Andy

You seem to have left no room for the landowner to have a say in this. Interestingly enough I was reading Dave Judson's new account of Cymmie and the BSA recently and in it David notes how permission to dig at Cove Hole above Grassington has been consistently refused for the last sixty years.

Oh dear, yawn.  Graham, why do you have to be so tiresome?  Clearly any future entrance digs will need landowners permission - that goes without saying.

 

[graham]

Oh dear, yawn.  Graham, why do you have to be so tiresome?  Clearly any future entrance digs will need landowners permission - that goes without saying.

Really, but haven't I seen in this very thread people discussing the times that they have tried to open/reopen entrances without seeking such permission? It does need not just saying, but stressing at times.

 

[nickwilliams]

Those associated with PDCMG seem irritated that this issue will not go away.  They should not really be surprised that by implementing a policy strongly disagreed with by a significant proportion (quite possibly a majority) of cavers that the issue persists.  We are talking about the current and future management of what is probably our biggest UK cave system.  Cavers have a right to express their views on this and will continue to do so.  Sooner or later PDCMG may have to conclude that their single entrance policy simply isn't tenable.  The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points and PDCMG cannot veto every dig without causing acrimony.  Some caves are by their nature multi-entrance and no amount of committee resolutions can change that reality.  Read Jim Eyre's account of the days when the old BSA tried to control the then single entrance to what is now Lancaster-Easegill and failed.  Sometimes it's better to bend with the wind rather than peeing into it.

Without wishing to comment on the specific case of Ogof Draenan, the idea that this is some sort of national democratic process and if enough cavers vote in favour then they must get their way seems to me to be specious. The job of a cave access management group is not simply to do what they think the majority of cavers want - it is to balance various interests, including those of landowners, exploratory and purely tourist cavers living near and far away, statutory bodies such as English Nature and the interests of the cave itself. They must also balance the needs and wishes of the current generation with those of future generations.

That's not to say that cave management committees should not themselves act in accordance with a democratic constitution, but the purpose of such a constitution is to provide a means by which the various interests can be properly balanced, not simply to provide a route for the majority of people to get their way.

It also seems to me that just because the 'answer' is right today, does not mean that the same answer will remain 'right' for all time. Again, one reason we have a management committee is so that these decisions can be kept under review and changed to adapt to changing circumstances. And the corollary to that, of course, is that just because a particular answer may be 'right' at some time in the future, does not mean it is necessarily 'right' today.

Nick

 

[graham]

 

[dunc]

Read Jim Eyre's account of the days when the old BSA tried to control the then single entrance to what is now Lancaster-Easegill and failed.  Sometimes it's better to bend with the wind rather than peeing into it.

But that was control as in denying access to most clubs, not something that is a problem at Draenen as access is available fairly easily for clubs albeit via a single entrance. Lancaster-Easegill is easy access with mutliple entrances and as a result has suffered a lot over the years (it provides a good example of what could happen to Draenen if people started opening up numerable entrances).
Careful consideration and much discussion needs to be undertaken before deciding if another entrance should be opened up and of course where to allow it/where a landowner will allow it.

 

[caving_fox]

"The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points "

Does all this passage lie under the ownership of the same person? If not have other landowners been approached regarding the possability of an opening on their area?

Just curious because I don't know the area that well.

 

[NigR]

"The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points "

Does all this passage lie under the ownership of the same person? If not have other landowners been approached regarding the possability of an opening on their area?

Just curious because I don't know the area that well.

Hi caving_fox,

Just back from digging at Blaenavon so please forgive me if I am somewhat brief.

(It would have been nice if an official representative of the PDCMG had answered your questions but as they haven't bothered (wonder why?) I suppose it's down to me to do so.)

No, all the cave passage does not lie under the ownership of the same person. However, those points which lie closest to the surface and would be easiest to dig in order to provide the most useful alternative entrances do.

So far as I am aware, other landowners have not (as yet) been specifically approached regarding the possibility of opening other entrances directly from their land. This is one option under consideration by myself and others if there is no improvement in the current situation.

As you say you don't know the area too well, why not take a look at Tarquin's excellent description of the cave at http://www.cavinguk.co.uk/draenen/ ?

It is also worth downloading the survex file generously provided by Duncan Price at www.sump4.com/downloads/ogof_draenen.3d if you have not already done so. I note from one of your earlier posts that you do not appear to be too familiar with precisely where the current (blocked) second entrance enters the system. Well. if you search around a bit on Duncan's survex file and find the station labelled 'megadrive.76' you won't be too far out.

Hope this has helped.

Regards,
Nig

 

[Duncan Price]

It is also worth downloading the survex file generously provided by Duncan Price at www.sump4.com/downloads/ogof_draenen.3d if you have not already done so. I note from one of your earlier posts that you do not appear to be too familiar with precisely where the current (blocked) second entrance enters the system. Well. if you search around a bit on Duncan's survex file and find the station labelled 'megadrive.76' you won't be too far out.

Mike McCombe wrote an excellent piece of software which takes this survex.3d file and adds the passage dimensions using the LRUD data stored in a seperate files set.  Furthmore, it is also possible to overlay a surface grid using a network of spot heights.  From this one can select a station and display its depth below the local land surface.  It is not perfect - the station referred to above is calculated to be 6 m above the local ground level.  But this probably reflects the course nature of the grid as well as any errors in the survey data.  If I remember correctly, there are at least an half-dozen places in the cave very very close to the surface.  All of these are under land that was owned by the coal board.  Not all of these are in useful locations either (particularly if one is interested in diving the few sumps that Draenen has).

The above is for information only.  Persons with strong views on the subject had best raise them with the cave management committee directly.

 

[NigR]

The following information is taken from the agenda for the forthcoming PDCMG AGM:

PWLL DU CAVE MANAGEMENT GROUP

Annual General Meeting

7:30pm on Sat 4th July 2009 at the Workingmen's Hall in Blaenavon.

Election of new committee
Secretary – new secretary required.
Treasurer.
Permit Secretary.
Conservation Officer.
Survey Secretary.
Biological Recorder.
Geological Recorder.

Proposal for the opening of the 2nd entrance
“Grwp Ogofeydd Garimpeiros propose that the current (blocked) second entrance to Ogof Draenen be re-opened with immediate effect in order to encourage and facilitate exploration in the further reaches of the system.”

The meeting is open to all interested cavers, who may contribute to debate; however, voting rights are restricted to officers and an individual nominated representative of each member club.

 

[NigR]

I believe the next PDCMG committee meeting is when a new executive is due to be elected. This would be the obvious point for Stuart to stand for the post of secretary.

Just to confirm that Stuart France will be standing for the vacant post of Secretary at the forthcoming meeting.

Also, John Stevens has agreed to be nominated for the position of Survey Secretary.

Anyone else want to be on the committee?

 

[Alex]

Only really read the first page I haven’t trauled through the whole thread so the following may have already been suggested, but why not make the second entrance an Exit only entrance (well exit).
This could be done by the way of an automatic Yale like lock which can be opened from the inside by simply sliding a bolt and closes on a spring and locks. It could only be opened from the outside with a key that only CRO would hold, that way we would get the best of both worlds as:

You would the ability to do a through trip should you want to allowing more exploration of deeper places as you know you are not too far from the exit, however not to make the trip too easy to do any more damage in the cave as you would still have to negotiate the original entrance series to get there.

Furthermore resuces would be far easier.

Other then the complexities of the said locking mechanism I cant see a problem with doing this and the landowner?, I would guess that the entrance would be used less then if it is only an exit so it may even make the land owner happy.

 

[NigR]

Alex,

Thanks for the input - it's always good to hear from someone new to the discussion.

A similar (though not identical) situation to the one you suggest does in fact exist with another major Welsh cave system. The second entrance to Daren Cilau is fitted with a lock which can be opened from the inside but needs a key in order to enter from the surface. The original entrance is not gated so if you don't want the hassle of having to obtain a key you can do the through trip in that direction. If you want to do the trip the other way around or just want to see the cave close to the second entrance you can call at the local caving club hut to obtain a key. So far as I am aware, this works well and there has been no negative feedback whatsoever. Certainly, it has not lead to any major conservation catastrophes in what were once relatively remote parts of the cave (it used to take around 4 hours to get there, now it takes 20 minutes).

 

[dunc]

Certainly, it has not lead to any major conservation catastrophes in what were once relatively remote parts of the cave (it used to take around 4 hours to get there, now it takes 20 minutes).

I guess some questions that would arise would be:
How long has that second entrance been open now (as in not sumped)? and are there any figures available as to how many times keys have been requested? Is the second entrance popular as an entrance or an exit? Does the Big Chamber log book have any records of caver traffic on through trips etc etc. The longer the entrance has been open with average traffic and no conservation problems the better the case for a second entrance to Draenen...

If you want to do the trip the other way around or just want to see the cave close to the second entrance you can call at the local caving club hut to obtain a key

Just out of interest are there any specific requirements to obtaining a key or can any Tom, Dick and Harry obtain one? (including any T, D & H claiming to be part of X Caving Club)?

 

[NigR]

How long has that second entrance been open now (as in not sumped)? and are there any figures available as to how many times keys have been requested? Is the second entrance popular as an entrance or an exit? Does the Big Chamber log book have any records of caver traffic on through trips etc etc.

Just out of interest are there any specific requirements to obtaining a key or can any Tom, Dick and Harry obtain one? (including any T, D & H claiming to be part of X Caving Club)?

Dunc,

Second Daren entrance in its present state (i.e. not sumped and passable to all) has been open for 11 months.

Chelsea SS administer the access so they would be the ones to ask regarding records etc.

Not too sure about specific requirements for obtaining a key - does it say anything on the CSS website?

Stuart France is CSS Secretary but is away on holiday at the moment. I'll inform him of your interest when he returns and pass on any info he comes up with.

Regards,
Nig

 

[dunc]

Main reason for asking them questions was to make a point about caver traffic in the once remote corner of Daren, it would seem the entrance has been usable for a reasonable time and as you say no conservation issues have arisen as yet (and long may it stay that way) but that should be compared to levels of caver traffic..

As for the key (I didn't have time to nosey around at websites yesterday), nothing on CSS but I've just looked on the MLCMAC website which suggests a ?10 deposit is required and the key needs obtaining from a CSS member. Perhaps if you arrive and there's no members around or you do a midweek trip it makes it more awkward to gain access via the second entrance - which I guess for conservation issues is a good thing. Although exit is still possible, but that's only one way traffic rather than two way for in-out trips.


And, I fear I'm waffling now and tired so I shall retire..

 

[NigR]

Dunc,

I can see where you are coming from regarding caver traffic and I agree with you. I have a vested interest in this myself (Draenen issues apart) as I am the person responsible (at Stuart France's invitation) for enlarging the dry bypass last August. I don't really want the place to get trashed or I'll have to go and collapse the choke again to make amends! Believe me, if I thought that was happening I would have no hesitation in doing so.

I forgot about it last night but there is a logbook just inside Price's Dig (Ogof Cnwc) so all the trips in should be recorded there. Again, I'll ask Stuart about it when he gets back.

You are quite correct in that you have to obtain a key from a CSS member and pay a ?10 deposit. As you say, this will limit the number of midweek trips but that is not a deliberate conservation measure.

One last thought. Conservation-wise, I would say that if you are contemplating the through trip then it would be better to use the second entrance as an exit. Price's Dig is wet and muddy and it is best to take that out of the cave with you rather than into the more vulnerable parts of Busman's Holiday. In fact, if enough people did the trip in that direction it might even help get rid of all the mud!

 

[whitelackington]

I have to say that I personally am not looking forward to raking up all of the old arguments, with the associated time and effort that this will inevitably entail. However the vehicle for this discussion has to be a face to face meeting of all of the interested bodies, ie. the PDCMG, and not an online forum that only embraces a minority.

Those associated with PDCMG seem irritated that this issue will not go away.  They should not really be surprised that by implementing a policy strongly disagreed with by a significant proportion (quite possibly a majority) of cavers that the issue persists.  We are talking about the current and future management of what is probably our biggest UK cave system.  Cavers have a right to express their views on this and will continue to do so.  Sooner or later PDCMG may have to conclude that their single entrance policy simply isn't tenable.  The 70+ kilometres of passage must be close to the surface at several points and PDCMG cannot veto every dig without causing acrimony.  Some caves are by their nature multi-entrance and no amount of committee resolutions can change that reality.  Read Jim Eyre's account of the days when the old BSA tried to control the then single entrance to what is now Lancaster-Easegill and failed.  Sometimes it's better to bend with the wind rather than peeing into it.

We recently caved in The French Pyrenees
the system we did several through trips in has 110 kilometres of surveyed passage and nearly fifty entrances.
network F?lix Trombe Coume Ouarn?de

A very fine cave with no apparent access restrictions, no bloody gates either.

 

[NigR]

....the system we did several through trips in has 110 kilometres of surveyed passage and nearly fifty entrances.

The way things are going at the moment this could be Draenen in a few years time!

A very fine cave with no apparent access restrictions, no bloody gates either.

I would be interested to know your opinion regarding the state of preservation of this system. Obviously it is not going to be as well preserved as a cave with more stringent access restrictions (i.e. a cave that virtually nobody ever goes down). However, considering that it is open to all (and always has been) how well do you think it is faring? How would you compare it to, for example, OFD or other less artificially protected caves in South Wales?

 

[NigR]

Main reason for asking them questions was to make a point about caver traffic in the once remote corner of Daren, it would seem the entrance has been usable for a reasonable time and as you say no conservation issues have arisen as yet (and long may it stay that way) but that should be compared to levels of caver traffic..

Regarding Price's Dig (Ogof Cnwc), I went down there yesterday (first time for 10 months) and the place seems to be faring pretty well. We were pushing on towards OCAF (no real progress) and the passages in that direction are no more well-trodden than they were on my last visit. However, some taping still needs to be done along here and it would be a good idea to do this sooner rather than later - certainly before the OCAF connection is achieved. So if anyone fancies helping out with some worthwhile conservation work just give me a shout or contact Stuart France at CSS.

Didn't have time to check the passages towards Daren (the most popular route) but will try to do so next time.

Have just had a chat with Martyn Farr, who originally discovered Busman's Holiday back in 1992. He has no misgivings at all about the easier route in and, as always, is just keen to see the cave extended further. Martyn hasn't been there via the new route yet but hopes to do so in the near future. It will be interesting to hear his opinion on how the cave is bearing up to the increased caver traffic.