Access - why the discrepnancy?
- Thread starter Stu
- Start date
cavermark
New member
Is there still case for a booking system for the more popular sporting caves? - eg. If 6 teams turned up to do Penyghent Pot on the same day on a bank holiday weekend it could be problematic...
The debate over who is eligible to make bookings (clubs/individuals etc.) would still need resolution of course.
Jon
Member
If I was being cynical, which I usually am, I'd say it was a pedantic reading of the letter of the law rather than a generous enforcement of the spirit of the law.stu said:
I'm sure some landowners didn't really want open access and this is one small way of still being in control.
One of the best examples is Leck Fell /Easegill where caves on the estate require a permit but for Mistral, which is on the Middletons (correct name?) land, no permit is required. Why? Is it because of any of the reasons given in previous answers? No, it's because the owners of that land aren't bothered about people walking across their bit of wild hill. Nothing to do with caves really, just access and control.
cavermark
New member
Hammy said:
Maybe, although I wouldn't queue that long - there are other classic routes nearby on Cloggy at a similar grade you could choose instead.
For something like Penyghent Pot- if I knew before leaving home that 6 other parties were turning up I'd go somewhere else to avoid waiting forever at pitch heads.
I like the Titan/Peak Cavern booking system - you can see online when the cave is booked:
http://www.peakspeedwell.info/index.php?option=com_jevents&Itemid=43&task=month.calendar&catids=46|45
Hammy said:
As a climber I can relate to this, but there is a significant difference: my climbing rack will be good for any route, my tackle sack will be packed with ropes for a specific pot, both in terms of lengths and order of packing, so switching to an alternative venue is not so easy.
I just get up early and make sure I'm first at the pitch heads................[in my dreams!]
Stu
Active member
The thing is cavermark you've picked an example from Derbyshire who are without doubt the most progressive and up to date in terms of attitude and use of technology. Eminently sensible and something I've offered up before as an opinion and solution for the Dales.
Works like this:
Go on CNCC website.
Find cave under listings and go onto that page.
Look at calendar - nothing in for the day I want. (If there are any restrictions for that fell as there legally can be, or a local concern - fire risk for example, I can see that too).
Click and enter details.
Permit is issued immediately - email auto response. (Permit numbers should be increased on a case by case basis too).
It works on many levels:
The landowners still get to exert their "control".
Cavers can see which caves are going to be busy and either look elsewhere or take a chance in a queue (six teams in Penyghent... when?! - I bet that has never happened recently! Anyway, one team could be 20 strong and five teams could be 10 strong, there's never a guarantee of things not getting clogged up).
CNCC can keep track for monitoring and conservation purposes. They could spin it as a 21st C solution when dealing with landowners for prospective digs - Lord Landowner, our system is so easy to use for cavers, they don't need to pirate because it's adaptive, easy to use, and keeps cavers onside rather than them being bullish and going "f***-it, I'm pirating".
It would also do away with the need for individuals within CNCC, or working for CNCC, to have to trawl through permit applications etc. I mean I'm always being told how busy they are and how time consuming it is, so it's one less job for them to do as it is automated.
Works like this:
Go on CNCC website.
Find cave under listings and go onto that page.
Look at calendar - nothing in for the day I want. (If there are any restrictions for that fell as there legally can be, or a local concern - fire risk for example, I can see that too).
Click and enter details.
Permit is issued immediately - email auto response. (Permit numbers should be increased on a case by case basis too).
It works on many levels:
The landowners still get to exert their "control".
Cavers can see which caves are going to be busy and either look elsewhere or take a chance in a queue (six teams in Penyghent... when?! - I bet that has never happened recently! Anyway, one team could be 20 strong and five teams could be 10 strong, there's never a guarantee of things not getting clogged up).
CNCC can keep track for monitoring and conservation purposes. They could spin it as a 21st C solution when dealing with landowners for prospective digs - Lord Landowner, our system is so easy to use for cavers, they don't need to pirate because it's adaptive, easy to use, and keeps cavers onside rather than them being bullish and going "f***-it, I'm pirating".
It would also do away with the need for individuals within CNCC, or working for CNCC, to have to trawl through permit applications etc. I mean I'm always being told how busy they are and how time consuming it is, so it's one less job for them to do as it is automated.
Of interest may be the following quote, from a document called Commons Toolkit Fact Sheet 13, published by Natural England in 2010:
13.4.2 The access afforded by CRoW
CROW provides the public with a right of access on foot only. This includes running, climbing,
photography, having a picnic, and bird watching. Wheelchairs are also allowed.
It does not include cycling, horse riding, camping, or rock climbing.
Have you spotted the oddity here?
A report commissioned by Natural England and first published in June 2009:
Natural England Commissioned Report NECR012
Countryside and Rights of Way Act, 2000 Part I: Access to the Countryside
actually has a recommendation that caving should be one of the activities allowed but as this was only a "recommendation" and it wasn't followed up at the time nothing changed.
The matter has been taken up by BCA and a CRoW Working Party has been set up to look into this and report back. (Details are in the Minutes of the 2013 BCA AGM.)
It does seem likely that a change in the law (or a change in the interpretation of the law) would be required to alter the situation. In order to do this, it requires that BCA itself, as the "Representative body for British Caving", agrees that a change is necessary. This is why the Working Party is looking at a number of related issues, including conservation as well as access issues.
13.4.2 The access afforded by CRoW
CROW provides the public with a right of access on foot only. This includes running, climbing,
photography, having a picnic, and bird watching. Wheelchairs are also allowed.
It does not include cycling, horse riding, camping, or rock climbing.
Have you spotted the oddity here?
A report commissioned by Natural England and first published in June 2009:
Natural England Commissioned Report NECR012
Countryside and Rights of Way Act, 2000 Part I: Access to the Countryside
actually has a recommendation that caving should be one of the activities allowed but as this was only a "recommendation" and it wasn't followed up at the time nothing changed.
The matter has been taken up by BCA and a CRoW Working Party has been set up to look into this and report back. (Details are in the Minutes of the 2013 BCA AGM.)
It does seem likely that a change in the law (or a change in the interpretation of the law) would be required to alter the situation. In order to do this, it requires that BCA itself, as the "Representative body for British Caving", agrees that a change is necessary. This is why the Working Party is looking at a number of related issues, including conservation as well as access issues.
Stu
Active member
Jenny, I'd made mention of this before, as some good having come out of that really fraught thread from last year.
I'm also glad it's you that is on the case. I'm grateful that it's someone with a Derbyshire connection (DCA being absolutely nailed on the most progressive council/association in the UK, in my opinion).
If you need any help...
I'm also glad it's you that is on the case. I'm grateful that it's someone with a Derbyshire connection (DCA being absolutely nailed on the most progressive council/association in the UK, in my opinion).
If you need any help...
