Accident Group, oops!

[whitelackington]

I largely agree with Mak.

Surely, if a caver is capable of doing s.r.t. rigging,
that caver does not need a "body" to tell him what to do.
Do we want none-thinking idiots rigging,
who need somebody peering over their shoulder, putting them straight,
I do not think so.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Liability is a very complex matter, and there are many things which cannot just be left to common sense.

If I install an aid for my own use, and leave it in place, and do not encourage (or discourage) others from using it, then one could say that anyone else using it is doing so at their own risk.

If I install an aid on behalf of a group of people, whether a club, or the BCA or whatever for the express reason that it is there to benefit third parties (i.e. other cavers etc), then it is important that I am sure the job has been done properly, and is safe when used in the proper manner. If someone uses it in an improper manner, then I would say they have only themselves to blame, unless, of course, I have provided them with misleading or poor instructions.

It is also important that the body who has arranged for the aid to be installed makes sure to the best of their ability that it remains in a safe condition, or if if becomes dangerous it is removed or rendered unusable.

A fault in a manufactured or artificially installed item is not necessarily going to scream at everyone passing by "look out, I am going to fall apart the next time anyone uses me".

What's this got to do with some guy dying on the road? Not a lot.

I do not condone the death penalty for what he did, so why should I be happy when he dies in a car crash?

 

[cap n chris]

I don't know what the solution is in situations where fixed aids are off limits in a lockable cave but my guess is that the "correct" thing to do is to deny access. As I am not the access controller this therefore has nothing much to do with me so I'll STFU.

 

[Peter Burgess]

As far as Rhino goes, I thought that access was still possible by approaching Graham with a request and a reason for the trip for CCC to consider. Have I missed something?

 

[ian.p]

Thanks, Mark; you've neatly explained why some caves are presently locked.  :read:

BTW; many people are not capable of thinking for themselves.

my point exactly - the decision to shut is based on the assumption by the body in question that most cavers can't think for themselves and would rip signs off anyway.

i doubt anyone would rip a sign off that said these bolts are dodgy treat them with suspicion i think most people are happy to be told if theres a danger that may not be easily recognised pointed out no ones run off with the sign in east water warning about posible explosions, poisnes gas,flooding and signes would be the lesser of the two evils. as for not puting a signe up because its unnesersery people on uk caving know the bolts arnt good club cavers are probably mostly awere that the bolts arnt good but im sure there are those havent heard and would probably like to know before they go and use the bolts.