Another idiot gets stranded in The Pit

[cap n chris]

There is a route through the pit for the more agile caver, notoriously difficult to find and traverse, as mentioned in the original post, the guy at least knew of its existence and attempted to find it. perhaps if some one more experienced with that route could offer guidance others may be ale to self rescue? it's been twenty years since I did it, or at least 'think' I did it, I have no recollection of the route...

Er, not sure I follow the logic....

If the route is notorious difficult to find and traverse, presumably it would take a bit of practice or at least some relatively comprehensive pre-trip preparation to get it imprinted on your mind.

Given this, would it not be a tad simpler to just remember the correct route, rather than planning for a far more complex "back-up" route for when the incorrect route is taken instead.

 

[Paul_L]

Er, not sure I follow the logic....

If the route is notorious difficult to find and traverse, presumably it would take a bit of practice or at least some relatively comprehensive pre-trip preparation to get it imprinted on your mind.

Given this, would it not be a tad simpler to just remember the correct route, rather than planning for a far more complex "back-up" route for when the incorrect route is taken instead.

What logic? This is caving, not finite and discrete mathematics.

There are two valid routes, one clearly more difficult, the guy who got stuck knew this as he had done his research and been there before. An unfortunate brain fart lead him the wrong way.
If his research had uncovered more info on the difficult route, I'm sure he'd have self rescued, he looked a pretty able fella to me.

 

[cap n chris]

What logic? This is caving, not finite and discrete mathematics.

There are two valid routes, one clearly more difficult, the guy who got stuck knew this as he had done his research and been there before. An unfortunate brain fart lead him the wrong way.

If a "brain fart" can cock up following the simple route what's the likelihood of another "brain fart" lousing up the notoriously complex and difficult Plan B escape route?

Logically, learning and following the standard simple route is a far better option than spending time learning a difficult route which you only need to take if you can't remember the simple one? Nothing to do with finite and discrete mathematics, just good sense, methinks.

 

[Paul_L]

That's like saying it's a pull through, no need to bring jammers!
We plan for all sorts of improbable scenarios, it's why most of us manage to get out when 'shit happens'.

If you're stuck in The Pit, logic wont help.
All i was trying to say is that being able to recall a short explanation of the alternative route might be of some use, definitely more interesting trying that route than swearing at yourself for 8 hours.

 

[ianball11]

If he'd got through the Storm Pot way then we'd not be chatting about it.

 

[cap n chris]

That's like saying it's a pull through, no need to bring jammers!
We plan for all sorts of improbable scenarios, it's why most of us manage to get out when 'shit happens'.

It's easy to plan for probable scenarios, but improbable ones don't normally get included on the grounds of improbability. With pull throughs it is highly probable, almost certain, that at some stage a rope gets jammed/stuck and won't pull through and hence the routine inclusion of jammers for pull through trips so that ascent and un-jamming the rope can be done. Also, in the event of a stuck rope which has been pulled up so it is out of reach, a spare rope is included which is sufficiently long to serve as a continue-to-exit backup.

If it is common for people to descend the pit by mistake and it results in being stranded, then a permanent aide memoire (such as a chiselled "Don't go down here" sign) would seem a wise precaution, so that shit happens less often. 

 

[Paul_L]

Why do I get the feeling I'm feeding a troll?

 

[Les W]

Why do I get the feeling I'm feeding a troll?

:-\

 

[cap n chris]

Apologies if it appears trollish! - I'm just genuinely finding it hard to figure out your original comment which effectively seemed to suggest that people would do well to learn a complex escape route just in case they balls'd up a straightforward and easily learned direct route. To me it just seemed akin to suggesting people should learn off by heart all the back roads from Bristol to London just in case they couldn't remember how to follow the M5, the former being a far harder memory feat than the latter. To me this just didn't stack up logically.

I'm happy to be in a minority of one, though.

I'm also very happy for anyone to learn the escape route to augment the main route but personally I can't see the need to do so if you prepare your trip carefully in the first place.

 

[Alex]

There is a route through the pit for the more agile caver, notoriously difficult to find and traverse, as mentioned in the original post, the guy at least knew of its existence and attempted to find it. perhaps if some one more experienced with that route could offer guidance others may be ale to self rescue? it's been twenty years since I did it, or at least 'think' I did it, I have no recollection of the route...

Sounds like it could be fun, I may descend there on a fixed rope, provided its not too wet and have a look if it is possible.

 

[Cave Mapper]

I was talking to someone in the rescue team on Sunday morning about that route and he reckoned that in dry weather the water level in the sump that was mentioned in the original post drops and that that is the way through. He went on to say that once you're through there, you've cracked it, and when people used to do it (back in the old days?) they always checked that the water was low enough to get through before they pulled their ropes down.

It sounds like a really interesting route. I fancy having a crack at it next time we get a dry spell.

Piecing together the various snippets of information I have, here's the route description, which could be completely wrong of course:

1st pitch (approx 35 feet) rig from the obvious traverse bolts. It's very easy to pull through from them.

2nd pitch (approx 40 feet) from the base of The Pit follow the stream down a narrow slot and rig from a substantial spike in the stream bed. This is set back from the pitch head and the rock is very sharp so rope protection is advisable. The pitch head is narrow and awkward and the pitch is quite wet.

3rd pitch (25 feet???) Go through the duck, which is only passable in dry weather, to reach the 3rd pitch which drops into the chamber of Storm Pot on the normal Simpson's Pot route

It would be great if someone who has done the route could tell us whether this is correct.

 

[Paul_L]

Apologies if it appears trollish! - I'm just genuinely finding it hard to figure out your original comment which effectively seemed to suggest that people would do well to learn a complex escape route just in case they balls'd up a straightforward and easily learned direct route. To me it just seemed akin to suggesting people should learn off by heart all the back roads from Bristol to London just in case they couldn't remember how to follow the M5, the former being a far harder memory feat than the latter. To me this just didn't stack up logically.

I'm happy to be in a minority of one, though.

I'm also very happy for anyone to learn the escape route to augment the main route but personally I can't see the need to do so if you prepare your trip carefully in the first place.

I must not have been as clear as I though I had, I was not suggesting hat everyone should learn the route and use it as a backup plan, that route is not even possible for most.
The pit is easy to avoid and everyone know it's there, lets not embarrass the poor chap anymore!

All I was suggesting is that there is very limited information on it and I for one would love to know the gory details you know, just in case my memory fails me just as spectacularly!

 

[hyweldavies]

No offense mean't to the above individual but it's such examples that give solo caving and it's practitioners a bad name. Contrary to the original statement, obviously he wasn't familiar enough with this cave or prudent enough to be soloing and 'experience(d)' well that's just dangerous.

Good point ! It would have been much better if he'd taken 3 or four mates with him. They could have had a game of I spy or something whilst they waited to be rescued

 

[Paul_L]

No offense mean't to the above individual but it's such examples that give solo caving and it's practitioners a bad name. Contrary to the original statement, obviously he wasn't familiar enough with this cave or prudent enough to be soloing and 'experience(d)' well that's just dangerous.

Good point ! It would have been much better if he'd taken 3 or four mates with him. They could have had a game of I spy or something whilst they waited to be rescued

Solo cavers, group cavers, Uni club fresher cavers, the general public don't see us differently, they think we're all a bit peculiar

 

[Elaine]

To me it just seemed akin to suggesting people should learn off by heart all the back roads from Bristol to London just in case they couldn't remember how to follow the M5, the former being a far harder memory feat than the latter. To me this just didn't stack up logically.

But the M5 doesn't go from Bristol to London??

 

[cap n chris]

:-[

Er, yeah. M4.

 

[Pitlamp]

That's like saying it's a pull through, no need to bring jammers!
We plan for all sorts of improbable scenarios, it's why most of us manage to get out when 'shit happens'.

It's easy to plan for probable scenarios, but improbable ones don't normally get included on the grounds of improbability. With pull throughs it is highly probable, almost certain, that at some stage a rope gets jammed/stuck and won't pull through and hence the routine inclusion of jammers for pull through trips so that ascent and un-jamming the rope can be done. Also, in the event of a stuck rope which has been pulled up so it is out of reach, a spare rope is included which is sufficiently long to serve as a continue-to-exit backup.

If it is common for people to descend the pit by mistake and it results in being stranded, then a permanent aide memoire (such as a chiselled "Don't go down here" sign) would seem a wise precaution, so that shit happens less often. 

"Chiselled"? H'm, I think you'd better have a little chat with Andy Hinde before doing that.

 

[Les W]

To me it just seemed akin to suggesting people should learn off by heart all the back roads from Bristol to London just in case they couldn't remember how to follow the M5, the former being a far harder memory feat than the latter. To me this just didn't stack up logically.

But the M5 doesn't go from Bristol to London??

:-[

Er, yeah. M4.

 

[kay]

:-[

Er, yeah. M4.

So maybe it would be useful to know the backroads? Er, just in case you took the wrong motorway by mistake?

 

[Roger W]

:-[

Er, yeah. M4.

So maybe it would be useful to know the backroads? Er, just in case you took the wrong motorway by mistake?

Might be a good idea to have few mates with you in the car so you can discuss where you actually are when you get to Exeter.