Are cavers cool?
- Thread starter Caver Keith
- Start date
cap n chris
Well-known member
... browsing, or loitering even...
Kenilworth
New member
ttxela2 said:
Hunter said:
I agree with the both of you. Exploration has nothing to do with exclusivity or newness. You might also explore a shopping center you've lived with for decades, or your wife's leg, or the most trampled to death cave out there. The act of being in a place, new or old, does not mean you are attentive to it, that you want to learn about it and understand it, that you are exploring it. A look at cave photos and trip reports confirms that many cavers are not explorers but tourists, losing sight of the place behind the sight of themselves in it.
Caver Keith
Well-known member
I found the YouTuber?s comment which started this thread amusing and I fully appreciate that he or she is quite entitled to their opinion. From the initial replies it seems that other cavers share my point of view.
Provocative videos? What am I to make of this? It does seem rather dismissive.
I make videos to satisfy my creative urges. I like experimenting with styles, genres and moods. I also bring to my film making my low threshold of boredom which I hope results in my films being unpredictable, watchable and innovative. All of this means that having produced a film of a particular genre, for example a documentary, I don't really want to produce another one the same, well not for a while anyway. So over the 11 years since I started my YouTube channel I have produced many different styles and genres - documentaries, music videos, promotional videos, gear reviews, pastiches, drama, comedy, factual, spoofs and even a five part mini cliff-hanger series.
I like to think that these might be the reasons why my channel has enjoyed a modest amount of success, but perhaps my achilles heel over the years has always been my warped sense of humour which has been variously described as puerile, childish, twisted, weird, and downright embarrassing.
Of course I?m under no illusion that my videos are universally liked or appreciated. If I had ever been under any misapprehension then my audience (and you) have been quick to dispel the myth.
Provocative? Perhaps, but I fail to see how "Keith?s Cavers", "Hey, Hey, We?re The Dudley", "Searching for the Real Santa Claus", reviewing gear or tempting Chunky through a squeeze with the lure of cake can be seen as making caving "seem a little more dangerous than it really is."
Keith Edwards
Kenilworth said:
Provocative videos? What am I to make of this? It does seem rather dismissive.
I make videos to satisfy my creative urges. I like experimenting with styles, genres and moods. I also bring to my film making my low threshold of boredom which I hope results in my films being unpredictable, watchable and innovative. All of this means that having produced a film of a particular genre, for example a documentary, I don't really want to produce another one the same, well not for a while anyway. So over the 11 years since I started my YouTube channel I have produced many different styles and genres - documentaries, music videos, promotional videos, gear reviews, pastiches, drama, comedy, factual, spoofs and even a five part mini cliff-hanger series.
I like to think that these might be the reasons why my channel has enjoyed a modest amount of success, but perhaps my achilles heel over the years has always been my warped sense of humour which has been variously described as puerile, childish, twisted, weird, and downright embarrassing.
Of course I?m under no illusion that my videos are universally liked or appreciated. If I had ever been under any misapprehension then my audience (and you) have been quick to dispel the myth.
Provocative? Perhaps, but I fail to see how "Keith?s Cavers", "Hey, Hey, We?re The Dudley", "Searching for the Real Santa Claus", reviewing gear or tempting Chunky through a squeeze with the lure of cake can be seen as making caving "seem a little more dangerous than it really is."
Keith Edwards
Assuming not everyone who watches your videos are cavers Keith, which is the most popular? Is it one that with a title like "Caving is for dead hard people only"? If it is then you can see why Kenilworth is saying that you are a little provocative. Unless my understanding of provocative as 'to cause reaction' is wrong?
After a quick scan:
"Caving Claustrophobia, kill or cure?" 12 million views (3 years)
"The Vice Ogof y Daren Cilau (Warning: Do NOT watch if Claustrophobic) 2.8 million views (3 years)
Top of the tree though
Thomas and the High speed Train 15 million views (5 years)
I think that you videos have become the benchmark though. I really like the minimal helmet mounted shots.
After a quick scan:
"Caving Claustrophobia, kill or cure?" 12 million views (3 years)
"The Vice Ogof y Daren Cilau (Warning: Do NOT watch if Claustrophobic) 2.8 million views (3 years)
Top of the tree though
Thomas and the High speed Train 15 million views (5 years)
I think that you videos have become the benchmark though. I really like the minimal helmet mounted shots.
David Rose
Active member
I love Keith's videos. They convey one thing more than anything else: that caving is fun, and that cavers are fun people to be around. I do get the impression from previous posts that Kenilworth doesn't see things that way. But since none of us know who he is, I could be wrong.
SimonDontFitDownDraenen
New member
Ian Ball said:
Thats just a good way to get views on youtube, clickbaity titles!
Kenilworth
New member
Keith
I have no criticism of your sense of humor. We all have different tastes and it is obvious that your videos are well liked by a large number of people. I was attempting to answer the question "Are cavers cool?" Depending on your definition of cool, I believe the answer to be no, not inherently so. One of the least attractive traits of cavers, to me, is that they overdramatize what is a fairly ordinary activity. No matter the creative purposes behind your videos, it is undeniable that they do so, that they intend to do so.
The problems with overdramatizing caving are that thrill seekers are attracted and timid people are repulsed, and these are two types of injustice being done to the reality of caves and caving. I want people to like caves for the right reasons, that is, for reasons that will lead them to care for caves. There is still room for lots of variety here. But if cavers want to seem cool they will only attract self-centered people who want to be cool, and who will have little concern for one of the most delicate landscapes they will ever encounter.
I have no criticism of your sense of humor. We all have different tastes and it is obvious that your videos are well liked by a large number of people. I was attempting to answer the question "Are cavers cool?" Depending on your definition of cool, I believe the answer to be no, not inherently so. One of the least attractive traits of cavers, to me, is that they overdramatize what is a fairly ordinary activity. No matter the creative purposes behind your videos, it is undeniable that they do so, that they intend to do so.
The problems with overdramatizing caving are that thrill seekers are attracted and timid people are repulsed, and these are two types of injustice being done to the reality of caves and caving. I want people to like caves for the right reasons, that is, for reasons that will lead them to care for caves. There is still room for lots of variety here. But if cavers want to seem cool they will only attract self-centered people who want to be cool, and who will have little concern for one of the most delicate landscapes they will ever encounter.
ttxela2
Active member
Kenilworth said:
That is a good point, on the scale of things if you compare caving to mountaineering I'm much more to the Sunday afternoon stroll up Win Hill end than the Summiting K2 end where some people here are. I often look at videos and think, nah, that looks a little much for me - but perhaps the reality would not be so bad?
Caver Keith
Well-known member
Thanks Groundhog, Ian and David for your kind words, and to Kenilworth I guess we will never see eye to eye. I do not accept that my videos over dramatise caving. I may use dramatic music and a few of my titles may be provocative but that?s as far as it goes. I know that my main audience is non-cavers which means that when I publish a serious or arty caving video I lose subscribers, but when I post a ?provocative? video the subscriber count and views go up. It is said that there is no such thing as bad publicity and the 'provocative' videos have bought me some modest success which means that I now have a core audience of cavers who by and large appreciate my work, but of course I?m never going to please everyone.
However it's not just members of the caving community who express reservations about my films. My most successful video ever (15.5 million views) has nothing to do with caving. Thomas and the High Speed Train was filmed on my garden railway. Now for those of you who think my caving videos are provocative then you may be surprised to know that the Thomas series of videos have proved to be even more controversial with model railway enthusiasts. They have led to me being accused of bringing railway modelling into disrepute. Still I had the last laugh. I used the comments posted on a garden railway forum to make Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends Discuss G Scale using Thomas and his friends to voice the dialogue from the forum - Creature Comforts style. Result - 3.85 million views.
However it's not just members of the caving community who express reservations about my films. My most successful video ever (15.5 million views) has nothing to do with caving. Thomas and the High Speed Train was filmed on my garden railway. Now for those of you who think my caving videos are provocative then you may be surprised to know that the Thomas series of videos have proved to be even more controversial with model railway enthusiasts. They have led to me being accused of bringing railway modelling into disrepute. Still I had the last laugh. I used the comments posted on a garden railway forum to make Thomas the Tank Engine and Friends Discuss G Scale using Thomas and his friends to voice the dialogue from the forum - Creature Comforts style. Result - 3.85 million views.
Kenilworth
New member
The fact that a "serious" caving video loses you subscribers may be an indication that caving isn't cool...
I don't guess we can see eye to eye since I can't imagine valuing publicity or an audience. We have very different ideas of success.
In honesty I have watched and enjoyed several of your videos, and believe them to be extremely well done despite our differences in taste. The provocative titles and the use of the cave as a setting for contrived hijinks have led me to quit watching.
I don't guess we can see eye to eye since I can't imagine valuing publicity or an audience. We have very different ideas of success.
In honesty I have watched and enjoyed several of your videos, and believe them to be extremely well done despite our differences in taste. The provocative titles and the use of the cave as a setting for contrived hijinks have led me to quit watching.
