Are Regional Caving Databases Fit For Purpose ?

[The Old Ruminator]

Before you send me a load of flak please note thet this is a question and not a condemnation. All my views are written from a stance of complete ignorance of the matter so maybe others can contibute to this " essay " to enlighten me. Basically here I can only comment on what I see on the Mendip Cave Registry and Archive.

So lets look at what might be useful assuming the regional website is your first point of call. ( are there others ? )

An up to date bibliography for us authors.
Up to date access arrangements.
Archive of log books where they are allowed.
Archive of early cave photograhy.
More links to useful cave related sites.
Maps and surveys where copyright allows.
Most important a modern gallery of photos for each cave. This gives a flavour of the site but important to me it lets me see how I can do my photos in a differant way. As I said its hard to get away from the formulaic.
Maybe an up to date rigging or gear guide.

OK thats the ideal world and unlikey to come to be with the set up of a site like MCRA. They rely on registrars to keep things going. One registrar deals with the photos. Maybe another with the bibliography. Years ago the system tended to work as older cavers gave up their time to do such things. Today everyone is busy and there are distactions like Facebook and here on UKC. Guide books are fine but for Mendip tend to be a decade apart and quickly out of date. To say that MCRA is moribund is unkind but I do note that there have only been five updates this year with the last in April. Its nobody's fault. Its really because things have lagged to a point where catching up is near impossible. I work on a paid for website called Wrecksite. All members can supply updates and images which are monitered by the rest of the members though an interactive process. I am a " partner " which is similiar to a registrar I guess. I have added 16,000 updates over ten years including 6,731 images . You can see the potential for a well supported and regulated website. Thats nearly a quarter of a million differant wrecks. OK all very differant from our ideal cave type database.
How regional cave websites are funded I am not sure but here we have a problem . What is such a site worth to cavers and how should it be funded ? I rather think that a subscription based access would not work. Maybe more financial input could come from the clubs via the BCA. We dont moan about the insurance componant of BCA. Sadly not all cavers are in a BCA affiliated club. From a technical point of view how many hosted images could a website contain without high costs. Here on UKC I resist using attachments as they dont show my work in its full glory. ( ahem ). Of course there lies the other issue of permamence. Mine here are hosted third party by Photobucket which costs me a lot via a yearly subscription. If I die ( or the mods really antagonise me ) I can stop that subscription and all my image posts are lost. To be honest I am not sure re that. Maybe they get retained with a watermark. Well in todays world what of anything online can be permament ?
So that brings us back to photos on regional caving websites. How can they be hosted permamently ? You know me. A serial photo splodger. Should I worry about my legacy when I am gone ? Will my thousands of cave images disappear. So what I suppose ? If I had a suggestion for MCRA etc it would be to make the site more open for updates from members rather than overworked registrars. The registrars could then relax a bit and just moderate. ( Something like Wikipedia ? ). Maybe they dont want " The Serial Sploger " onboard to run amok. Clearly such sites are in danger of getting years out of date whilst the poor registrars lose the will to continue. So please all dont see any of this as a criticism. People have worked hard to get MCRA etc to a point where they are now. Moving forward is the issue as well as the backlog. Is there any way this can be changed ?

 

[Babyhagrid]

The Cambrian cave registry is very useful for myself. The bibliography section is very useful for the smaller caves. And with the BCL it means you can access most information about the caves in a quick fashion. However for larger caves the bibliography gets very large and also is very much incomplete.

Not sure how this problem would be fixed.
Maybe a separate bibliography section with all mentions of the cave in literature put in order?

The map feature is great. The same with the mendip registry map.

It has very unuseful black and white surveys . But this is south Wales, you can't expect a miracle like good publicly available surveys and survey data (except OFD , ♥️) . Maybe links to third party downloads would be nicer in this regard ☠️

I use the Cambrian cave registry as a starting point for researching smaller caves. But larger caves are easier to research from ogof.org or from the CSS website.

 

[RobinGriffiths]

The inclusion of url links to articles is a right pain. I've just been trawling through a mine resource (which may be say 10 years old), and out of 420 reference urls, well over 50% are now gone.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Here is taking the idea a lot further but as you see is funded by A Heritage Fund.

https://www.facebook.com/maritimear...qmAMGgVLBJMP6gZMo34acNqU1a51w7wg&__tn__=<,P-R

Maritime Archaeology Trust​

·

As part of the Fathoming the Future project (https://ow.ly/gTr050QjPzq), we have brought together our huge range of online resources in one place for the first time in our new Discovery Hub. You can dive into audio articles and podcasts, play with 3D models and interactive maps, learn something new with educational resources, and dig into booklets and videos, all organised by time period, theme, and resource type.
There will be lots more content uploaded over the coming months, but in the meantime, grab a mince pie, put your feet up, and get exploring!
https://maritimearchaeologytrust.org/discovery-hub/
#maritimearchaeology #heritage #onlineresources #education

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Partly all brought to mind by the query re Chudleigh Caves. There seemed to be no definitive answer.

 

[langcliffe]

Should I worry about my legacy when I am gone ? Will my thousands of cave images disappear. So what I suppose ? If I had a suggestion for MCRA etc it would be to make the site more open for updates from members rather than overworked registrars.

So the real problem is that the MCRA is not providing you with a potential memorial?

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Ah if caving was my only hope of legacy. I am better known in the wreck diving scene . More for my innate stupidity though.

 

[Blitz]

Before you send me a load of flak please note that this is a question and not a condemnation. All my views are written from a stance of complete ignorance of the matter so maybe others can contribute to this " essay " to enlighten me. Basically here I can only comment on what I see on the Mendip Cave Registry and Archive.

Snip

To say that MCRA is moribund is unkind but I do note that there have only been five updates this year with the last in April. It's nobody's fault.

So a correction, the different registry areas are updated constantly. Such updates are not reported as such, so considerably more than just five times this year.

 

[Jenny P]

Maybe you should have a look at all the Regional Council run websites to see how they work and how they differ. All have been set up by people who know their region well and have probably taylored their websites accordingly. The most important thing is that they should be easily available and regularly updated and it's helpful if major changes, particularly related to access, are also flagged up on a site like UKcaving so people are prompted to check the current situation.

 

[ChrisB]

So lets look at what might be useful assuming the regional website is your first point of call. ( are there others ? )

An up to date bibliography for us authors.
Up to date access arrangements.
Archive of log books where they are allowed.
Archive of early cave photograhy.
More links to useful cave related sites.
Maps and surveys where copyright allows.
Most important a modern gallery of photos for each cave. This gives a flavour of the site but important to me it lets me see how I can do my photos in a differant way. As I said its hard to get away from the formulaic.
Maybe an up to date rigging or gear guide.

I'm new to this, so also seeking education. To know whether something is "Fit for purpose" requires an understanding of what the purpose is intended to be. I don't believe all the regional caving bodies set out to address those things - CNCC have a map, rigging topos (for caves where CNCC placed the anchors) and cave descriptions. Not all caves have a description yet but I think that's the aspiration.

Most of the other things are what I'd expect to find (not knowing any better) on http://cave-registry.org.uk/ but I may be mistaken in that. It would seem odd, to me, to have a regional and a national registry, as the point of a registry is that it should be definitive.

 

[mikem]

Latter is a data archive, not a national registry - as it states on Home page

 

[ChrisB]

data archive, not a national registry

I'm still confused. It states that it's a data archive, but it's called a registry and it doesn't say it's not one. Not having any other definition of a cave registry, I assumed a data archive was included in what the term means. TOR's list includes many of the things I'd expect to find in a data archive.

 

[alastairgott]

If you go on registry editor on your pc you will find many registries with all different purposes. The cave registry has been created with the specific purpose of being a depository/repository/storage place for cave survey data.
Other flavours of cave information invariably exist, but having a central place where cave survey data can be/(has the possibility of being) stored. Has to be a bonus.

The idea of the cave registry for survey data is that it’s not a finished article and is being actively modified, polished and worked on in a place where cooperation is encouraged and nurtured.

The idea of registries for descriptions, photos and other items of cave specific information is slightly more static. I would not consider photos, descriptions or warnings on caves being too tight for rescue beyond a certain point to be data. Data is a word which leans more towards maths than English and the arts - writing a good description with legible, understandable and consice English is definitely an art form. And I’m sure someone trained in the arts/English could have summed up the above in one sentence!

 

[mikem]

Registry - "a place where records are kept". Beyond that you're making up your own definitions

 

[mrodoc]

I have suggested the OR attends a MCRA meeting rather than sniping at it but he seems unwilling to do so. Also if he has spare time he could look at the Devon Cave Registry and flag up amendments where needed. Also all these registries are kept by volunteers and it takes time to maintain them.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

I have suggested the OR attends a MCRA meeting rather than sniping at it but he seems unwilling to do so. Also if he has spare time he could look at the Devon Cave Registry and flag up amendments where needed. Also all these registries are kept by volunteers and it takes time to maintain them.

Carefully framed as a question rather than a criticism. I was more hoping to be educated on the matter. There does seem to be some confusion regarding the term " purpose "

 

[ChrisB]

Thanks, @alistairgott - I understand a bit more now, and I am happy with the concept of a developing national repository for survey data.

I'm not trying to put any particular point of view, or argument, just wanting to understand and discuss TOR's original post and learn where information may be found.

So, attempting to address that original post, I wouldn't expect survey data in a regional database, since there's a national one. In terms of 'purpose' each BCA region is a democracy, so the information any particular region decides to collect is down to what its members want and the resources available - those two things define the purpose. Perhaps, however, what TOR means by "regional caving databases" isn't what I took it to mean, as the post is mainly about MCRA, which relates to a particular caving area, not a caving region (such as CSCC).

 

[mikem]

MCRA isn't part of CSCC, as it was formed beforehand, but does cover most of same area. CSCC do the access & the guidebook covers rigging

 

[The Old Ruminator]

MCRA isn't part of CSCC, as it was formed beforehand, but does cover most of same area. CSCC do the access & the guidebook covers rigging

I guess that I want " All things to all men ". All on one tidy up to date website. Perhaps this is an illusion and cant happen in the real world. It all seems far too diverse.

 

[mikem]

Then you're truely knackered when aditnow (for example) disappears...