• The Derbyshire Caver, No. 158

    The latest issue is finally complete and printed

    Subscribers should have received their issue in the post - please let us know if you haven't. For everyone else, the online version is now available for free download:

    Click here for download link

AV?s Oversuits Quality Control

topcat

Active member
topcat said:
Maybe we need to persuade Warmbac to add a design to their range based in the cut of AV and perhaps using the lighter Cordura?  No need for double knees or elbows : surely we all use pads?

I'll donate my very clean and good condition, but very disseminated AV for them to cut up for a pattern.......

Bloody auto 'correct'...........de-laminated, not disseminated!!
The scary thing about AC is that it often does it retrospectively: I check a paragraph is ok and move on, only to find auto alterations later.......oh well, with my level of spelling competency I'm better off with AC than without.

Warmbac could copy the cut, miss out the elastic gathered waist, put a chest pocket on both sides and maybe even move the leg seam and no one would ever know.

Even if the cost was the same as AV it would be much better to be able to support a home team and not look like a sack of bricks....:)
 

mrodoc

Well-known member
I like the AV's for comfort and fit but they wear faster being made of thinner material than the Cordura suits from Warmbac e.g. the dual panel sections tend to wear out quite quickly probably secondary to snagging but once the panels have gone the suit goes on for quite a while. If you fit perfectly into a Warmbac then they are great as they wear really well so horses for courses IMO. Currently I use my worn AV for digging and the newer one for 'best'.
 

andrewmcleod

Well-known member
Aquasure/Seamgrip on the seams is to protect the exposed stitching, rather than trying to glue the seams together. Most of the stitching is internal, but some of the reinforcement stitching is external and very vulnerable to abrasion.

You can buy 250ml tubes of Aquasure/SeamGrip (same stuff but SeamGrip is runnier) but I find one standard sized tube is enough to plenty of the stitching on an oversuit (mostly the bum stitching).
 

ILoveCaves

Member
Along with the methods mentioned above, I wonder what would happen if you maybe could merge an undersuit with a AV Titan, through stitching the together or otherwise and if that might keep the suit together for longer? Might have to give it a go!
 

pwhole

Well-known member
I'm not sure a washing-machine would be too happy with that arrangement! Personally I like to wash my undersuit after most trips, but the oversuit just gets hosed down at the club - I wouldn't dare put that in the machine with Derbyshire mud. And I suspect most of my clever repairs would also fall apart :)
 

AlexR

Active member
I imagine the AV oversuit material would not enjoy the regular washing in a machine - certainly not at elevated temperatures. Polyurethanes are somewhat susceptible to breakdown by hydrolysis, I'd imagine the higher temperatures of a washing machine and movement would speed up de-lamination.

I've owned one Warmbac and two AV suits in 10 years or so of caving. Developed an intense dislike for the Warmbac as I basically couldn't move in it, I accounted for shrinkage but even then the fit was generally poor for me and the fabric incredibly stiff. I'd take the hit for digs with a short (!) commute, but generally think you're expending way too much energy moving in them.
The first time I put on an AV was a revelation, and have found mine to last reasonably well. My more recent one is 3 years old, starting to show significant wear but I find that acceptable with the amount of caving I do.

To those using Aquasure on their AV suits, I highly recommend switching to Sikaflex EBT+ (available e.g. from Screwfix). Picked up that tip on the forum a while ago, and it's hands down the best repair tactic I've ever come across. For spreading it on your suit I recommend diluting the silicone down with odourless paint thinner (I use hexanes, probably not available to most people) and painting areas of wear.* Regular white spirits work as well, but the silicone somewhat retains the smell and it's not pleasant, especially in smaller passages.

For those tempted to make a siliconised boiler suit, I should add the silicone is quite "sticky". Actually useful for keeping knee pads and similar in place, but not so good if you have a large siliconised area in contact with cave you're trying to move through.


*You do need to use a hydrocarbon/ aprotic solvent to dilute it down, liberal airing highly recommended. I'm tempted to see if IPA works but my guess is it won't.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
The Meander Cordura was a good compromise, as it had an AV cut and lighter-weight Cordura than the Warmbac - not sure why they stopped making them so quickly after release. I too started off on a secondhand Warmbac and almost gave up caving it was so stiff and unyielding. I might just get that Meander repaired a bit more and get it back in action.
 

AR

Well-known member
At this point I'll put in a recommendation for Landjoff oversuits, especially since they do them in black... Putting that aside, mine's stood up well to a lot of ratching around small obscure grot-holes in the Peak; I generally clean it by taking it into the shower with me and scrubbing it.
 

pwhole

Well-known member
Hmm - living above a restaurant, washing caving kit in my shower is a risky business. It's already blocked once (not from me, thank god) and they had to get my bathroom floor up. While we're on the topic of Landjoff though, I've been intrigued by their 'Cordura Extreme' suit and how it compares to a Warmbac for fit and flexibility. The design and spec certainly hint as it being the ultimate digging suit - and it's orange! What's not to like :)

http://landjoff.com/product/85/caving-coverall-cordura-extreme.html
 

ILoveCaves

Member
AR said:
At this point I'll put in a recommendation for Landjoff oversuits, especially since they do them in black... Putting that aside, mine's stood up well to a lot of ratching around small obscure grot-holes in the Peak; I generally clean it by taking it into the shower with me and scrubbing it.

Never heard of them before! Will defiantly give them a look. Is the suit more baggie or well fitted like an AV would you say?
 

PeteHall

Moderator
pwhole said:
The Meander Cordura was a good compromise, as it had an AV cut and lighter-weight Cordura than the Warmbac

Agree, I've got a couple of these, and really liked them, but both wore out on the outside leg seam. I've repaired one of them once so far and it needs some more attention now. The other I started to repair some time ago and put it aside for later... maybe I ought to finish it some time.
 

CJ

Member
pwhole said:
The design and spec certainly hint as it being the ultimate digging suit - and it's orange! What's not to like :)

I've had my eye on this for a while, especially with the option to get it custom built to your measurements (for a small fee). At first the colour put me off (although still preferable to the warmbac colours) but I think I'd quite enjoy looking like an astronaut. First thing I'm doing is stitching some NASA patches onto it
 

aricooperdavis

Moderator
The internal suspenders in Landjoff oversuits are a surprisingly nice feature; before buying it I thought it would be a bit of a gimmick and was tempted to cut them off, but having actually tried it I love how it stops the suit being baggy and catching on stuff, and like that I can take the top half off for walk-ins.
 

AR

Well-known member
gingernutcrazy said:
AR said:
At this point I'll put in a recommendation for Landjoff oversuits, especially since they do them in black... Putting that aside, mine's stood up well to a lot of ratching around small obscure grot-holes in the Peak; I generally clean it by taking it into the shower with me and scrubbing it.

Never heard of them before! Will defiantly give them a look. Is the suit more baggie or well fitted like an AV would you say?

I've found my Landjoff to be well fitted, and as Ari says, the internal elasticated braces are great for improving the fit, and for being able to "roll the top down" when walking to and from places on a hot day. I'm not sure whether any of the UK caving kit suppliers are importing them at the moment though, but I think they still sell through the UK Ebay - when mine eventually goes, I'll be trying to get the version with reinforced knees and backside to replace it. About the only thing I dislike about the suit is  the velcro on the cuffs, I keep meaning to put some large plastic press-studs on (got some, just haven't got round to it!)
 

wellyjen

Well-known member
aricooperdavis said:
The internal suspenders in Landjoff oversuits are a surprisingly nice feature; before buying it I thought it would be a bit of a gimmick and was tempted to cut them off, but having actually tried it I love how it stops the suit being baggy and catching on stuff, and like that I can take the top half off for walk-ins.
The old Dragon oversuits had the internal braces too and had the advantages you describe. Surprised so few other manufacturers have copied the feature. I've still got an old Dragon suit in the cupboard that gets lent to novices occasionally.
 

MarkS

Moderator
AlexR said:
I imagine the AV oversuit material would not enjoy the regular washing in a machine - certainly not at elevated temperatures. Polyurethanes are somewhat susceptible to breakdown by hydrolysis, I'd imagine the higher temperatures of a washing machine and movement would speed up de-lamination.

Although I only ever wash it on a cold rinse cycle, my AV goes in a washing machine after pretty much every trip and I've never noticed any delamination.
 

mikem

Well-known member
The kiwis are making Kevlar oversuits (for about ?200):
https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product-category/helmets-gear/overalls/
 

ILoveCaves

Member
mikem said:
The kiwis are making Kevlar oversuits (for about ?200):
https://www.aspiring.co.nz/product-category/helmets-gear/overalls/

Feel like shipping fill be another ?200 on top of that!  :eek:
Bet it?s incredibly strong stuff though
 

ILoveCaves

Member
AR said:
gingernutcrazy said:
AR said:
At this point I'll put in a recommendation for Landjoff oversuits, especially since they do them in black... Putting that aside, mine's stood up well to a lot of ratching around small obscure grot-holes in the Peak; I generally clean it by taking it into the shower with me and scrubbing it.

Never heard of them before! Will defiantly give them a look. Is the suit more baggie or well fitted like an AV would you say?

I've found my Landjoff to be well fitted, and as Ari says, the internal elasticated braces are great for improving the fit, and for being able to "roll the top down" when walking to and from places on a hot day. I'm not sure whether any of the UK caving kit suppliers are importing them at the moment though, but I think they still sell through the UK Ebay - when mine eventually goes, I'll be trying to get the version with reinforced knees and backside to replace it. About the only thing I dislike about the suit is  the velcro on the cuffs, I keep meaning to put some large plastic press-studs on (got some, just haven't got round to it!)

It appears you can buy straight from them! For ?95 they seem like a steal with the modifications you?ve mentioned too!
 
Top