not_a_climber
New member
Gritstone said:
Can we just address the use of this phase? Not very 2019 my dude.
Backing up a solo descent.
- Thread starter Gritstone
- Start date
Can we just address the use of this phase? Not very 2019 my dude.
Gritstone
Member
Yes sorry, not very PC. I actually recently joined a club for the chance to get into longer deeper and more difficult caves that I wouldn't entertain on my own but I still go caving alone, I really enjoy the total isolation of it. The caves I SRT in contain pretty short pitches mainly around the Peak probably down to fears I've built for myself I've overthought the issue of safety, I already know the rope won't snap because I've done way worse to a rope than slide up or down it many times above ground. Thank you all so much for the advice it's nice to get a confidence boost from people that have more time underground than myself. I single roped into Merlin's Mine at the weekend and had no problems in or out. Maybe I'm just conditioned to the H&S side of working at height from working on cranes daily. But also I would never want to risk someone else's life to save mine or clean up the mess.
cap n chris
Well-known member
Gritstone said:
Fully concur; solo caving is tops. Done plenty and it's a very different kettle of fish indeed. Almost spiritual.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Gritstone said:
A lot of the point of being attached by two independent systems (which would normally be two ropes) is about preventing user error becoming terminal as well as protecting about equipment failure. If you totally mess up threading your descender, or thread it while clipped to an gear loop or something, your _entirely separate_ (and different) backup system (i.e. your ASAP normally) will save you.
With SRT you can still operate in a way that protects against user error. For example, you can choose never to use a descender that you haven't first tested while also having a backup (generally a cowstails) - then if you have cocked up loading it somehow (or clipped it to your gear loop) you will fall onto the backup rather than the ground.
When doing a changeover from up to down, once you have unclipped your Croll and sat down on your locked off Stop, slide your hand ascender down a bit but don't remove it until you have unlocked your Stop and tested it.
Always leave a cowstail in a rebelay, when passing it on the way up, for a little bit longer - that way if the anchors have suddenly become knackered (or the rope is over a razor edge or whatever, or just tied with a crap knot or whatever) and will fail in the first few bounces then you are still attached to something!
These are certainly not things people _need_ to do, but we all make mistakes... I have a friend who always used to unclip his cowstail and sit down on his Stop without testing it. He also had a bad habit of not holding the brake rope, for which I abused him solidly for a year. One day he mis-threaded his Stop onto one bobbin only, and sat down at the top of a 40m pitch. Fortunately he had broken the habit of a lifetime and was actually holding the brake rope, so he merely scared the crap out of himself and (in a mild state of panic) managed to clip back in (after dangling in fear for a bit) and do it properly! I was at the bottom just wondering what was taking him so long.
If you find yourself worrying about this sort of thing too much though, you are almost certainly worried about the wrong risks, which often simple things like tripping over and breaking an ankle (particularly on a solo trip) or falling down a dodgy (but unroped) traverse, or slipping on a mud slope, or just getting lost.
pwhole
Well-known member
Good point - I foolishly let impatience get the better of me a couple of years ago, and started to free-climb a 4m pitch as I couldn't wait for the person on the rope to complete it. I'd free-climbed this many times before I put the rope in. Anyway, I slipped and fell 2m straight back down, luckily landing in the only clear bit, or I would have been crippled. The ends of all the fingers in my gloves were all gone from me scraping down the wall! But two hours later my back completely seized up from the impact, and I was out for a month. So all the protection I'd put in was pointless as I didn't use it.
The SRT bit of a trip is usually the safest in my opinion
ttxela2
Active member
Cap'n Chris said:
I agree, I often go underground alone but perhaps for different reasons, I prefer a very slow pace, I dawdle around looking at stuff, take pictures, have a picnic - maybe a bit of a snooze, mainly in relatively easy mines. It's great to go with mates too but I often feel like I've done a bit of a run around and need to go back for a proper look. I've not really got into SRT but am having a bit of a go at getting back into it. I'm probably going to rig up something to practice at home where I would also be alone (or at least not with anyone able to help) so I am also wondering about a system of backing up whilst practicing - at least initially.
pwhole
Well-known member
An ASAP (or similar) is definitely the best hands-free solution on a second rope, which would be much easier to manage at home, but it's a very expensive solution, especially if it's just for practising. A Shunt has plenty of positives, but the main negative being it won't slide down the rope without assistance. Adjustable cowstails are an interesting halfway solution for passing rebelays but can get very jammed up once they're dirty. Stepping that principle up a bit, a Grillon is also a very useful device here, especially getting onto ropes where the main anchors are below you, as you can abseil for short distances on the captive rope, enabling you to smoothly descend onto your main descender - and then leave it behind for the reverse manoeuvre when you come back up. But they probably wouldn't appreciate a lot of mud either, and they're equally expensive unless you get paid to do it.
Boy Engineer
Active member
ttxela2 said:
I should draw your attention to Regulation 5 para 2 (f) of the The Management and Administration of Safety and Health at Mines Regulations 1993, which forbade sleeping below ground.
Back to the topic in hand.
By far the biggest safety consideration in a solo descent (or any other) should be good rigging and skilled use of equipment. Having a back up will not necessarily help mitigate a shortfall in either of these. What is it that you want to be safe from? Think about that.
In industry we make a big issue about always having a back up, but it hasn't saved some poor souls from injury or death. In some cases the back up itself has failed to work as envisaged. It might have been inappropriate for the job in the first place, requiring the user to let go when in danger and this has proved impossible in the circumstances. Or the cause of failure of the main system has also caused the back up system to fail such as on a sharp edge. Both have led to fatalities in industry.
So the answer to your question is - forget a back up. Concentrate more on good rigging practice, your own skill level, using appropriate equipment etc. That'll keep you a lot safer.
Cheers and good caving
By far the biggest safety consideration in a solo descent (or any other) should be good rigging and skilled use of equipment. Having a back up will not necessarily help mitigate a shortfall in either of these. What is it that you want to be safe from? Think about that.
In industry we make a big issue about always having a back up, but it hasn't saved some poor souls from injury or death. In some cases the back up itself has failed to work as envisaged. It might have been inappropriate for the job in the first place, requiring the user to let go when in danger and this has proved impossible in the circumstances. Or the cause of failure of the main system has also caused the back up system to fail such as on a sharp edge. Both have led to fatalities in industry.
So the answer to your question is - forget a back up. Concentrate more on good rigging practice, your own skill level, using appropriate equipment etc. That'll keep you a lot safer.
Cheers and good caving
TheBitterEnd
Well-known member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wt8Dxpb3b6E
Tseralo
Active member
I think its partly a mindset thing climbers have always been taught to backup the abseil using a prusic or similar, I thought the same coming into caving from a lifetime of climbing. You can even find a few old posts of mine saying quite similar to gritstone. The risks and rope work although look similar on the outset but are very different and you have to change your tools and techniques when moving between.
After all there are a lot more dead and broken climbers than cavers so whatever we are doing seems to be working.
Lastly be careful what you go saying in the caving community there are a lot more of poofs, trannys and cripples than you might think and they have done a lot more, harder caving than you.
After all there are a lot more dead and broken climbers than cavers so whatever we are doing seems to be working.
Lastly be careful what you go saying in the caving community there are a lot more of poofs, trannys and cripples than you might think and they have done a lot more, harder caving than you.
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Tseralo said:
Using a prusik isn't like using an ASAP or a second rope etc; it's like using a Stop instead of a Simple (or maybe a Rig instead of a Simple since a Stop quite often doesn't...). It doesn't protect against equipment failure at all; it only protects against user error or something like a rock to the head which prevents you holding the brake rope (which is arguably less likely on a well rigged SRT route than a rough climbing abseil with the rope running over the ground).
While I'm not saying people are wrong to use a Simple, for example, personally (with the exception of very occasional use of Italian hitches) I won't use any belay device or descender without *some* level of brake assistance e.g. Rig for SRT/positioning: reliable; Grigri for single rope climbing: reliable; Edelrid MegaJul: reliable IF holding the rope before the fall but will not catch falls, like all the geometry based devices, if the rope is held above the device.
