BCA pros and cons
- Thread starter marsrat
- Start date
darren
Member
I'm no fan of BCA and the way the insurance works, but at least the insurance is against the person not a club (yes I know its very limited in scope and its worth the person having extra insurance). This means the person can cave with any club without joining, should the club allow.
In the cycling world, where British Cycling insures a lot of clubs, the insurance is for the club, non members can officially ride 3 times with the club and then must join. The joining fees are much lower but its annoying.
In the cycling world, where British Cycling insures a lot of clubs, the insurance is for the club, non members can officially ride 3 times with the club and then must join. The joining fees are much lower but its annoying.
JoshW
Well-known member
Woah here we go. A long but probably incomplete list of my thoughts on the matter.
Landowner indemnity Insurance
Landowner indemnity is included within the insurance package that covers them for cavers accessing their land who may decide to sue them. *personal opinion: all landowners would be well advised to have public liability for all people accessing their land - cavers or not. Most homeowners here will have it included within their home insurance*
Forcing cavers to be a BCA member
I agree with those saying that BCA is not forcing you to be a member to be a club member. Your club however is ‘forcing’ you to be a BCA member to join them if they are a BCA club. This is presumably because they’ve assessed that the benefits of BCA them to a club and to its individuals outweigh the frankly minimal annual cost.
If you want to know the specific reasons your club are a BCA member, feel free to ask them!
Youth and Development work
Having held the post of Y&D rep for several years and continuing to be involved with the working group since stepping down this next statement may not be a surprise , the value of the work done by this group can not be understated. The ability to be able to approach university unions as the national representative body for a sport holds a huge amount of gravitas, and has gotten me some significant wins, in order to allow some clubs to continue existing without major hurdles being put in their way.
Other things your membership goes on
- Caving Library
- Web services (I believe BCA host several club websites on its server - I may stand corrected on this
-
Roundup
Does the BCA represent value to me? Yes
Could the BCA be doing more for its members? Of course yes!
I think BCA in general is struggling to get some really good stuff done because it’s getting itself in a tangle with the really basic stuff (like keeping the membership informed with what they’re actually doing, and not holding themselves accountable through simple actions like minuting which representatives voted for/against/abstained on its votes).
Really good stuff that BCA has the potential to do, but can’t seem to for whatever reason (all my personal opinions!!!)
Act as a way of sharing resources for training, either equipment or personnel (as CHECC seem able to do), so that clubs and individuals have access to training across a range of topics in a location convenient for them.
Create a unified front for access arrangements, and ensure that caves are as accessible for as many as possible, again sharing resources across regions and saving volunteer time as much as possible
Conservation- mount national educational campaigns around conservation and awareness.
All of the above requires volunteers with the time and skillset as well as support from others within council AND buy in from regional councils, all of which require significant leadership skills to generate.
What I think would help BCA going forwards
I think any organisation should have a strategy about what they intend to do and the direction they intend to head in. This should include how the organisation will demonstrate its value to its paying members, and be held accountable to them.
This has previously been requested and has not been taken forwards. I would like to see anyone going for a key role within the organisation to detail how they see the organisation developing over the next few years and how they will push this
Landowner indemnity Insurance
Landowner indemnity is included within the insurance package that covers them for cavers accessing their land who may decide to sue them. *personal opinion: all landowners would be well advised to have public liability for all people accessing their land - cavers or not. Most homeowners here will have it included within their home insurance*
Forcing cavers to be a BCA member
I agree with those saying that BCA is not forcing you to be a member to be a club member. Your club however is ‘forcing’ you to be a BCA member to join them if they are a BCA club. This is presumably because they’ve assessed that the benefits of BCA them to a club and to its individuals outweigh the frankly minimal annual cost.
If you want to know the specific reasons your club are a BCA member, feel free to ask them!
Youth and Development work
Having held the post of Y&D rep for several years and continuing to be involved with the working group since stepping down this next statement may not be a surprise , the value of the work done by this group can not be understated. The ability to be able to approach university unions as the national representative body for a sport holds a huge amount of gravitas, and has gotten me some significant wins, in order to allow some clubs to continue existing without major hurdles being put in their way.
Other things your membership goes on
- Caving Library
- Web services (I believe BCA host several club websites on its server - I may stand corrected on this
-
Roundup
Does the BCA represent value to me? Yes
Could the BCA be doing more for its members? Of course yes!
I think BCA in general is struggling to get some really good stuff done because it’s getting itself in a tangle with the really basic stuff (like keeping the membership informed with what they’re actually doing, and not holding themselves accountable through simple actions like minuting which representatives voted for/against/abstained on its votes).
Really good stuff that BCA has the potential to do, but can’t seem to for whatever reason (all my personal opinions!!!)
Act as a way of sharing resources for training, either equipment or personnel (as CHECC seem able to do), so that clubs and individuals have access to training across a range of topics in a location convenient for them.
Create a unified front for access arrangements, and ensure that caves are as accessible for as many as possible, again sharing resources across regions and saving volunteer time as much as possible
Conservation- mount national educational campaigns around conservation and awareness.
All of the above requires volunteers with the time and skillset as well as support from others within council AND buy in from regional councils, all of which require significant leadership skills to generate.
What I think would help BCA going forwards
I think any organisation should have a strategy about what they intend to do and the direction they intend to head in. This should include how the organisation will demonstrate its value to its paying members, and be held accountable to them.
This has previously been requested and has not been taken forwards. I would like to see anyone going for a key role within the organisation to detail how they see the organisation developing over the next few years and how they will push this
Pitlamp
Well-known member
. . . and give financial support to regional bodies, variously.
Difficult ask with only a couple of part time employees, so Josh you mean more like:
Pitlamp
Well-known member
Just one other thought; BCA has enthusiastically taken on board the role of pushing for CRoW to include caving access. BCA officers have a vast network of family members, friends and acquaintances to call upon for help. That was how your interests were buoyed by a helpful opinion from a QC - remember? If BCA didn't exist, it would be difficult or impossible for the caving community to access such crucial help when we need it.
Babyhagrid
Well-known member
I imagine Eton alumni are a similar amount of the population. And they have a lot of influence sadly
JoshW
Well-known member
Yeah I really appreciated Chris’s statement on both its tone and its content. He has my support (whatever that counts for)
Difficult with only a couple of part time employees. But even in my short ish time on council I’ve seen some mega keen volunteers be put off, and when stepping away, not given enough credit that might have encouraged them to come back at a later stage when their personal lives allowed it.
Anyway, I’ve said as much as I feel I can that is relevant. As always my insurance@british-caving.org.uk inbox is open for any queries
Cavematt
Well-known member
To save me retyping everything you can read my thoughts on why the BCA is important in the October 2019 newsletter (page 8):
Alas, my involvement in BCA was very brief and of dubious success
However, as someone who has been involved in the CNCC for much longer (>10 years), I know the vast majority of the work we have done over this period has been funded by BCA (as part of our annual grant claim). The BCA are the central 'pot' that fund the majority of regional council activities (not to mention many other resources).
For the CNCC over recent years, this has included conservation projects, subsidised training workshops, anchor installations and purchases, cave entrance restoration, our ever-expanding website and IT-infrastructure, and our numerous initiatives to try to promote caving and keep cavers informed of regional activities.
We are typically claiming around £5000/year from BCA funds for our work, and without this, CNCC would need to either discontinue work, or find funding elsewhere.
Therefore, for me, joining the BCA is not just about the insurance. It's about doing my bit, and contributing to the national pot that ultimately goes towards so many projects that benefit myself and others on an almost weekly basis. It just seems the right thing to do.
To put it another way... Going caving is usually free, but the anchors I hang from, the fencing around the entrance, or the entrance pipe I slide down were not. Therefore, £20 per year doesn't seem much as a contribution towards these and many other things.
I really hope that over the coming few years the BCA can encourage some mega enthusiastic new people in, to bring a little more energy to the BCA, to 'sell' the benefits of BCA beyond just the insurance, and make the organisation something people want to be part of and proud of, rather than just feeling they are forced to be part of. For me, that was an immediate priority in 2019, and I believe it should remain so today.
Alas, my involvement in BCA was very brief and of dubious success
However, as someone who has been involved in the CNCC for much longer (>10 years), I know the vast majority of the work we have done over this period has been funded by BCA (as part of our annual grant claim). The BCA are the central 'pot' that fund the majority of regional council activities (not to mention many other resources).
For the CNCC over recent years, this has included conservation projects, subsidised training workshops, anchor installations and purchases, cave entrance restoration, our ever-expanding website and IT-infrastructure, and our numerous initiatives to try to promote caving and keep cavers informed of regional activities.
We are typically claiming around £5000/year from BCA funds for our work, and without this, CNCC would need to either discontinue work, or find funding elsewhere.
Therefore, for me, joining the BCA is not just about the insurance. It's about doing my bit, and contributing to the national pot that ultimately goes towards so many projects that benefit myself and others on an almost weekly basis. It just seems the right thing to do.
To put it another way... Going caving is usually free, but the anchors I hang from, the fencing around the entrance, or the entrance pipe I slide down were not. Therefore, £20 per year doesn't seem much as a contribution towards these and many other things.
I really hope that over the coming few years the BCA can encourage some mega enthusiastic new people in, to bring a little more energy to the BCA, to 'sell' the benefits of BCA beyond just the insurance, and make the organisation something people want to be part of and proud of, rather than just feeling they are forced to be part of. For me, that was an immediate priority in 2019, and I believe it should remain so today.
shotlighter
Active member
Bob I'm guessing that this prospectus was before the virtual shutdown in caving when the BCRA and regional insurances were ended?
There is no mention of the "third party indemnity" for land owners, that IIRC became the lynch pin for restoring access.
Duncan
Member
Another perhaps less-well known resource provided by BCA is the Cave Registry Data Archive:
http://cave-registry.org.uk/
http://cave-registry.org.uk/
It was just after the almost complete shutdown caused by foot and mouth
andrewmcleod
Well-known member
Hardly seems fair to blame the BCA for an access agreement arranged, as you say, locally that you find inconvenient?
Particularly as the BCA has generally pushed for better and simpler access for all cavers including non-members.
Perhaps if the BCA were some centralised superpower it would be easier for you to get keys as a non-member than the current highly-devolved system where people from across the country have to deal not only with the regional level but also individual clubs and their whims...
I didn't think there were any caves left that you had to be a club member to get into anyway?
Why is it necessary to have gates on the caves? I suspect I know the reason, but I'd like to follow the logic as it may help to find answers to your concerns.
paul
Moderator
In the Peak anyway, some cave cave entrances are near or next to public footpaths and are otherwise open shafts in fields. They are closed using a nut and bolt so cavers know to bring an appropriate spanner ("Derbyshire Key") to gain access. Anyone else who wants to open the lid/gate and have a look and then leave it open is unlikely to have a spanner with them so an obvious danger to others and to livestock is mitigated.
Bob Mehew
Well-known member
The prospectus was issued around March 2003 prior to BCRA being informed in September 2003 that they would not be offered another insurance policy as a consequence of the 9/11 terrorist action in New York in 2001. I don't recall Foot & Mouth being cited as part of the reason for the loss; just a substantial reduction in the level of risk which was acceptable to insurers. One of the reasons BCRA started talks about transferring the insurance activity was that at the same time, the law was being tightened up on the 'selling' of insurance (which is what BCRA did). So the idea to side step it was to offer it as a membership benefit. We also became very conscious at the same time that in order to provide unincorporated clubs with insurance cover, then every club member had to be insured else the burden of being sued (including legal costs) would not be shared across the club membership.
A number of places have resorted to gates on the principal that opening a gate is even more of a conscious act to get into the cave than just 'blundering into' the cave. Thus a person would have less persuasive argument in law about not realising they were entering somewhere dangerous. The 'key lock' / 'Derbyshire key' lock / 'just latch' is an extension of that argument.
A number of places have resorted to gates on the principal that opening a gate is even more of a conscious act to get into the cave than just 'blundering into' the cave. Thus a person would have less persuasive argument in law about not realising they were entering somewhere dangerous. The 'key lock' / 'Derbyshire key' lock / 'just latch' is an extension of that argument.
Plus lots of caves were dug open and farmers don't like extra holes on their land.
There are caves where you have to be a BCA member (majority of whom are in clubs)
I wasn't suggesting F&M was a reason for the insurance, it was just another issue that restricted caving around that time & made landowners wary of people accessing land
There are caves where you have to be a BCA member (majority of whom are in clubs)
I wasn't suggesting F&M was a reason for the insurance, it was just another issue that restricted caving around that time & made landowners wary of people accessing land
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