BCA resources directed towards 'commercial caving' (spin off from CNCC thread)

[jasonbirder]

But I think recreational cavers have done far more harm to caving.

What a ridiculous statement...recreational caving IS caving...

Without Caving as a viable hobby and recreational activity...how many councils/QUANGO's/Schools/Charities etc would think to pay Professional Caving Instructors to take their pupils/charges on paid underground trips?

Without Caving as a viable recreational activity how many Professional Caving Instructors would there be??? None I know do it to pay for their Ferrari and mansion...(WELL maybe Cap'n Chris ) most because they love caving and its a way to combine work and hobby in one...

There would be no new caves opened or extended as I've yet to meet anyone paid to dig...and where would all those surveys and guidebooks come from...

My vote for the daftest statement ever!

 

[Pitlamp]

You said "recreational cavers have done far more harm to caving". This may be true in the case of a very small minority but doesn't represent cavers generally.

I made the statement based on what I consider to be a fact that there have been far more recreational cavers who have caused problems than there have been professional cavers who have done so.  I hesitate to make an estimate on the proportion of problems to population but I accept that it is likely for both groups the proportion is tiny.  I am forced to concede that behind ExSumper's mutterings is a reasonable point; one caver (of either type)  could precipitate the wholesale closure of caves.  I make these comments not to denigrate caving but to try to ensure cavers recognise this dilemma and try to help dealing with it.

I suspect it depends on one's perception of "causing problems". But I'm sure you and I can disagree over it without falling out in any way. I think you and I probably would agree with the view that it's time this forum had more posted on it about actual caving instead of some of the stuff we've had to endure over the last week or two.

 

[martinm]

I think you and I probably would agree with the view that it's time this forum had more posted on it about actual caving instead of some of the stuff we've had to endure over the last week or two.

Hear, hear. Bored of it now.  Anyone who isn't happy, go to meetings, put your views forward, help change stuff where necessary, end of... now to do some more work for the BCA CroW working party regarding Peak caves...

 

[Pitlamp]

Sorry MMilner - I'd better qualify that. I wasn't referring to people who believe change is a good thing and are putting time and effort into trying to build a proper case. Whether or not I agree with them, they should certainly have the opportunity to try and convince others. What I really meant was I'd be glad to see an end to the overly acrimonious and at times unnecessarily vulgar type of posts we've seen quite a lot of lately.

Maybe it's a symptom of cavers' frustration at all the foul weather over recent weeks? Oh well, spring's not far away now.

 

[martinm]

Sorry MMilner - I'd better qualify that. I wasn't referring to people who believe change is a good thing and are putting time and effort into trying to build a proper case. Whether or not I agree with them, they should certainly have the opportunity to try and convince others. What I really meant was I'd be glad to see an end to the overly acrimonious and at times unnecessarily vulgar type of posts we've seen quite a lot of lately.

Agree totally. 

 

[jasonbirder]

With reference to the above comment of mine...and other comments on this thread that were deleted...

As Graham's (more pointedly abusive) comment was completely removed...and mine merely edited (and hence having a moderator comment below) it does give the impression to anyone coming onto the thread that it was actually ME breaching forum guidelines for behaviour and etiquette...

As I didn't report Graham's thread to the moderator (As it reflected more badly on him than on me) would it be possible to re-instate?

 

[Bob Mehew]

But I think recreational cavers have done far more harm to caving.

What a ridiculous statement...recreational caving IS caving...

Without Caving as a viable hobby and recreational activity...how many councils/QUANGO's/Schools/Charities etc would think to pay Professional Caving Instructors to take their pupils/charges on paid underground trips?

Without Caving as a viable recreational activity how many Professional Caving Instructors would there be??? None I know do it to pay for their Ferrari and mansion...(WELL maybe Cap'n Chris ) most because they love caving and its a way to combine work and hobby in one...

There would be no new caves opened or extended as I've yet to meet anyone paid to dig...and where would all those surveys and guidebooks come from...

My vote for the daftest statement ever!

I think I will reply to this at the risk of going off thread.  Caving is made up of both recreational cavers and professional cavers (whether you like it or not).  The simple number of recreational cavers is much larger than the number of professional cavers.  And if we go back several decades, say to the sixties, when there were no professional cavers, we still had problems.  Hence my claim on a simple number basis, more recreational cavers have done 'harm' than professional cavers.  Whilst I accept the numbers are thankfully small and hence as a fraction minimal, there can be no denying that 'harm' has been done.  When I talk about 'harm', I don't just mean blocked access and upset land owners.  In particular, I would put it too you that we have loved some caves to death.  It is a real embarrassment when I look at pictures of locations of today and yesterday to see how much has been lost.  See http://www.the-loner.co.uk/CavePhotos.htm for example.

My attitude to conservation has dramatically changed since I started caving in 1965 and with it I hope my impact.  I accept what you say (excepting the first and last paragraph of course) in that most of caving is conducted by recreational cavers.  Therefore it is up to recreational cavers to ensure they protect what they have found and not love it to death.  I just hope you younger ones can learn faster than I did.