BCA Statement on Children & Young Persons

[menacer]

Years ago a volunteer was a volunteer, they were community spirited folk who had spare time on their hands but not necessarily money, that wanted to put back something to society - youth clubs/scouts/sports/football/music/meals for the elderly/fundraising...the list goes on...

Now a volunteer has to pay out money to get a certificate simply to say they are not on any dodgy register YET.

The unfortunate Plymouth Nursery saga is a good example of how all these structures can be in place and all the hoops can be jumped, ts crossed and I's dotted, and the bubble wrap still gave way...

UK citizens also dont fail to notice that since hand guns and Knives were banned and all firearms had to be registered, people havnt stopped dying in the streets from Gunshots and Stabbings...
Alcohol is banned for under 18s yet they still get it.

Yet Thousands upon thousand of comunity spirited, Innocent folk across the UK, in the name of helping good causes, religously put their hand in their pockets, fork out money annually for these numerous  little Hoop jumping excersises despite the fact its no guarantee to prevent anything.
 

 

[ian.p]

right had a conversion with a freind in education in the environment caving club re what the law says:
You do not curantly need any form of CRB or other check to take young people caving in a voulentry capacity i dont think this is going to be affected by the new ISA stuff coming in.
You arnt realy puting yourself at any more risk by not having a CRB check because as has been pointed out before a CRB check only proves you have no history of ofensis.
Yes you have a duty of care towords anyone under the age of 18 but then you do also have a duty of care towords other adults in your caving group if to a lesser degree. Unless you have been crimanaly negligent youre fine.

Obviosly it is strongly advisable to take sensible precautions such as always having more than one adult with a child/group of children if there is a female child it would be wise to have a female adult in the group. Have a look at the BCA child proection documents for more advice. 

if you think about the sorts of situations likley to arise in normal caving clubs youre unlikley to have a large group of unkown children anyway theyre more likley to be children of members or the freinds of members children one is not an issue at all due to the presence of a parent and the other provided the precautions above are followed shouldnt be much of an issue either. If a club were to try and arange caving events to get young people intrested in caving then that again isnt realy a problem provided commen sense is used leaders should be known to be competent by the club (You dont need an LCLA or any other ticket to take people caving in a voulentry capacity) and the above precautions taken. A one day event would not raise any acomadation issues.
Obviosly vulnrable children (and for that matter adults) are a bit of a different ball park but its unlikley that a caving club is going to have to deal with that situation.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Sorry Ian, the law (Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006) which set up the ISA brings in a much stricter control over activities with children (that is any one aged under 18) and vulnerable adults.  And it does not matter if it is done for work or as a voluntary activity or even as a club.  The major way around this for children is to be a friend of the family of the child in which case family friends are exempt.  The other exemption is to undertake an activity less than once per month during the day time. 

The bit about CRB checks is misleading.  This law requires checks to be done which includes a CRB check.  However, there is also a separate requirement for certain jobs which require a specific declaration about a CRB check which has to be done even thought the person has already been checked under this law.

This law also brings into force a new offence for a group (I use this word deliberately as it is not just companies or charities) such as a club to run an activity without doing the required checks. This offence can be applied to any member of the club.  So people who work with children and hence should know about the new set up, could be taken to court for not ensuring their club did the right thing, especially if they are a club official.  This could end up with them being barred from their job.

The existing BCA advice is now somewhat out of date.  The only good news in all of this is that the check is FREE if you are a volunteer. 

 

[ttxela]

Whatever the real requirements there seems to be alot of activity on this front at least around here. We've had to give a reference for one of our neighbours who helps out at a local Sunday school and the company my eldest daughter works for who are currently installing new heating systems in a number of local schools, have just had their workers sent off site until they can all be CRB checked.

 

[ian.p]

ah right many thanks for that Bob some of thats new to us 

 

[MSD]

Does anybody know whether the legislation covers people not resident in the UK, but visiting? How are (for example) visiting school groups from other countries dealt with? Would the accompanying teachers have to be registered?

Reason for asking, I occasionally organise caving trips to the UK for the Swedish Speleological Society, typically lasting a week, staying at a caving hut. We have never had an age limit on the trips and there have be occasions when someone under 18 has been on the trip.

If we get tangled up in this kind of nonsense I think we'll go caving somewhere else. Our young members are welcome on all our activities and in over 40 years we have never had a single problem or any kind of allegation of anything inappropriate happening. It seems that the UK has gone completely bonkers. I've said it on this thread already, but I'll say it again: I am SO GLAD that my children are growing up in Scandinavia.

Mark

 

[langcliffe]

Does anybody know whether the legislation covers people not resident in the UK, but visiting? How are (for example) visiting school groups from other countries dealt with? Would the accompanying teachers have to be registered?

There was a story in the papers recently implying that visitors would be bound by the same legislation.

See http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/133473/-Big-brother-spells-end-for-Scout-Jamboree

I apologise for the fact that the link is to the Daily Express - it was the first I found.

 

[j4nny]

Interested in your response, Am I right in taking from all this that clubs taking young people ( under age of 16) and venerable adults on caving trips do not require individual CRB checks if the parent, guardian or a family friend accompany them?

I am currently in the process of writing a Child & Vulnerable adult protection policy for our club. I have looked at other similar activates and governments documents for advice and it?s all a bit confusing. I work part time as a youth worked and am CRB checked for that role, not only to protect young people but also to protect me and my staff, which is equally as important.

 

[Cookie]

It seems that the UK has gone completely bonkers.

I quite agree. Can't our Government see this legislation creates a paranoia that is very damaging? That harm needs to be balanced against the good that is clearly intended.

It would seem those whose job it is to find the right balance have already succumbed to the paranoia.

 

[ttxela]

It seems that the UK has gone completely bonkers.

I quite agree. Can't our Government see this legislation creates a paranoia that is very damaging? That harm needs to be balanced against the good that is clearly intended.

It would seem those whose job it is to find the right balance have already succumbed to the paranoia.

Absolutely, I and many of my friends spent much of my childhood being driven about to various events and activities by people my parents didn't know from Adam no checks were carried out and no harm came to anyone.

The point has been made that if you want to do this sort of thing it's a fairly easy hoop to jump through and appears at this stage to be free for volunteers. The trouble is this sort of thing does put people off, every hurdle put up will cause some people to not bother.



It really is monster under the bed territory and those in favour seem to be offering

 

[exsumper]

The paranoia has been around for a while now, Thanks to a coalition of bonkers Wimmin's groups,politicians and those in the media, who share the view that every man is either a wife beater, rapist or pedarast and thought it a great idea to foist their views on to the rest of the population via the media and through knee jerk legislation.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Interested in your response, Am I right in taking from all this that clubs taking young people ( under age of 16) and venerable adults on caving trips do not require individual CRB checks if the parent, guardian or a family friend accompany them?

I am currently in the process of writing a Child & Vulnerable adult protection policy for our club. I have looked at other similar activates and governments documents for advice and it?s all a bit confusing. I work part time as a youth worked and am CRB checked for that role, not only to protect young people but also to protect me and my staff, which is equally as important.

Yes the act does not apply if a parent, guardian, partner, or adult family friend is present; see Section 58 of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006.  But please note the child age limit is under 18 not 16!  If parent etc is not present then assuming you can't catch one of the other routes around it, the person in charge would have to be "vetted" by ISA which is different from "CRB checked".  It is a complex area.  The ISA web site http://www.isa-gov.org.uk/ does give a link to some information and they have been helpful to me in responding to questions.

By the way the ISA only covers England, Wales and Northern Ireland but there are national differences; Scotland has different law which is coming into force later on.  It is not clear what working both sides of the England / Scotland border will require.  And as langcliffe has said, if a group comes in from abroad they will have to comply with this law (as is required for any law). 

 

[j4nny]

its a MineField! 

thanks - I'll have a look at that.

 

[MSD]

  And as langcliffe has said, if a group comes in from abroad they will have to comply with this law (as is required for any law).

I'm not sure that's either true or possible. There are many situations where a law applies to people resident in a country, but not to people non-resident or there are reciprocal arrangements specifically for cross-border situations. For example taxation law takes account of both where you are resident and where you have income. Foreign registered cars don't pay road tax or congestion charges.

In other situations UK law applies to UK citizens who are not resident in the UK. For example a coroner can investigate the death of a UK citizen even if it took place abroad.

In any case how are the UK authorities going to vet and obtain references (which they have a reasonable chance of being able to check up) for people who don't live in the UK? I'm not sure that the UK authorities could even obtain police records from many other countries for this purpose. Of course they can get/share information if someone is suspected of a serious crime, but I'm not at all sure that this kind of mass screening would be accepted by many other countries (who might rightly feel that (a) their police service has more important things to do and that (b) handing over information about people that have NOT been convicted of a crime is a breach of their civil rights).

Mark

Mark

 

[cap n chris]

The Independent Safeguarding Authority would appear not to be so independent after all. The vetting and barring scheme is being axed before it even got off the ground.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12372097

 

[mikem]

The scheme was to have taken effect last autumn but was halted by the Coaltion pending a review. The VBS will not go entirely, but will be dramatically reduced and is likely to be renamed.

The ?80 million ISA will be merged with the Criminal Records Bureau into a single organisation responsible for checking people?s backgrounds and clearing them for work.

Also:

In a related move, criminal record checks will no longer be sent directly to potential employers but to the individual first to allow them to challenge any concerns or suspected errors.

New rules will also pave the way for minor offences in the past to no longer be included in checks.

The Coalition pledged to restore vetting to ?common sense? levels.

The reform, to be included in the Freedom Bill published next week, aims to reverse the notion that everyone is a potential risk to children.

From: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... -back.html

 

[SpeleoTrog]

The Coalition pledged to restore vetting to ?common sense? levels.

If someone manages to get common sense and Coalition (or any other politician for that matter) in the same sentence can we assume that it's a wind up?

 

[Bob Mehew]

It was clear from early after the election that the new government were looking for some way to wind down the impact of the Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act.  The Telegraph's report is in advance of a statement from the Home Secretary or one of the Home Office Ministers together with the draft bill.  However, I suspect we will have to wait for guidance material to be issued before we can start to sort out who may be and who won't be caught by the new approach.  But whilst I expect to see substantial changes, I am not sure I would go so far as to suggest common sense will be forthcoming.  Hopefully, given the state of play reached before the new government came in, we should see some further relaxations which might well exempt clubs from the need to get anyone who caves with a child in the absence of a parent vetted.  Though I will speculate that some new steps might be placed on clubs in place of the vetting process.  Even then, we will have to await to see what happens in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[graham]

easier simply to never go caving with anyone under the age of 40.

 

[Roger W]

Hmm, yes, but some of the older members of the club might come into the "vulnerable" category, too...