Bolts or anchors? (Split from "Loose resin anchors" topic)

[Simon Wilson]

Two probably pretty stupid questions (betraying my ignorance of the practical here):
A) what is the standard hole cleaning for 'BCA' resin bolts - is a brush or compressed air used? Are the holes often wet? What about when these anchors were being placed? (my limited understanding was that the bond between rock and glue should be stronger than between glue and bolt)
B) I assume that when pulled the bolts came out with glue still attached to them, but when non-loose BP bolts are pulled out for testing do they come out with glue on them? There is a picture on the BP site of bolts with different levels of cleaning coming out with lots (bad) or no (good) glue on them; I assume a problem with the resin would produce a similar effect.

A stupid question is one that isn't asked.

We don't use bolts, we only use anchors. The whole point of the anchor scheme is to avoid the use of bolts.

 

[andrewmcleod]

You are, of course, technically correct - the best kind of correct

but as I am sure you are aware, 'bolts' is in the common parlance for both 'bolt' bolts and glue-in anchors, so if the good users of the forum would be so kind as to forgive me this lack of technical language and read 'bolt' as 'anchor' in my last post, that would be appreciated

 

[PaulW]

Two probably pretty stupid questions (betraying my ignorance of the practical here):
A) what is the standard hole cleaning for 'BCA' resin bolts - is a brush or compressed air used? Are the holes often wet? What about when these anchors were being placed? (my limited understanding was that the bond between rock and glue should be stronger than between glue and bolt)
B) I assume that when pulled the bolts came out with glue still attached to them, but when non-loose BP bolts are pulled out for testing do they come out with glue on them? There is a picture on the BP site of bolts with different levels of cleaning coming out with lots (bad) or no (good) glue on them; I assume a problem with the resin would produce a similar effect.

So change the word bolts to anchor and answer the questions


A stupid question is one that isn't asked.

We don't use bolts, we only use anchors. The whole point of the anchor scheme is to avoid the use of bolts.

 

[Simon Wilson]

You are, of course, technically correct - the best kind of correct

but as I am sure you are aware, 'bolts' is in the common parlance for both 'bolt' bolts and glue-in anchors, so if the good users of the forum would be so kind as to forgive me this lack of technical language and read 'bolt' as 'anchor' in my last post, that would be appreciated

Yes Andrew and our posts crossed. I started writing the full reply (which took some time) whilst you were posting. I have this all the time. I don't really mind because when someone uses the word bolt it tells me that they aren't an engineer which is sometimes useful to know.  :halo:

 

[andrewmcleod]

Yes Andrew and our posts crossed. I started writing the full reply (which took some time) whilst you were posting. I have this all the time. I don't really mind because when someone uses the word bolt it tells me that they aren't an engineer which is sometimes useful to know.  :halo:

(ex)-physicist yes, engineer no

Another problem with the language is that, certainly from a climbing point of view, an 'anchor' is a system rather than a single point - a 'belay anchor' on a sport route would be two bolts rather than one, or it could be a collection of gear. The issue being you can normally clip to an anchor in climbing and be safe, but need to find another anchor to back it up using the industrial terminology...

Anyway thanks for the response; interesting and as you say you could speculate but better to get the data...

PS probably nothing you don't already know (plus it's just a few throw-away comments from the Other Side), but I found this interesting:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=601697
indicating that DMM Eco's may be particularly prone to becoming loose (possibly hence why loose bolts seem so prevalent in caving, and relatively rare in climbing)... but this is definitely getting incredibly speculative now so I will stop!

 

[Simon Wilson]

But there is a need to be clear what we are talking about. By definition a bolt has a thread and is designed to engage with a nut. I prefer to follow the established terminology used in industry. http://www.the-cfa.co.uk/

Not everyone is in 'the industry' though and uses words their peers are most familiar with. It is important to have strict technical definitions so we engineers and the legal eagles can do our jobs, but flexibility and consideration must be allowed in communication with wider audiences, such as those on this forum.

The audience on this forum is a specialist audience of cavers. The industry I was referring to is the construction fixings industry where resin bonded anchors have been developed and from where cavers have borrowed the technology. Just as in that industry we also use both bolts and resin bonded anchors and just like them we need to make a clear distinction between the two things.

 

[Ed]

If we are getting pedantic on terminology what happens when the anchor is rigged with a machine screw rather than a bolt?

 

[droid]

Nobody owns language or has the right to dictate terminology as 'better' or 'more correct' outside of a specific context: you will never get climbers to call glue-ins anchors and not bolts because it will just cause confusion where there was none (in the climbing community)

The science community would disagree with your first point.

As regards your last point, as Simon stated, this is a caving community not a climbing one. So wee differentiate between 'bolts' and 'anchors'. It isn't rocket science.....

 

[andrewmcleod]

The science community would disagree with your first point.

As an (ex)physicist I would say again it is all about context! Scientists are perfectly at liberty to insist on 'correct' technical language in academic journals, and not so much to start telling people that they should stop saying things like 'letting the cold in'...

As regards your last point, as Simon stated, this is a caving community not a climbing one. So wee differentiate between 'bolts' and 'anchors'. It isn't rocket science.....

But caving isn't industry either, and most of the cavers I know refer to anchors as 'bolts' regardless of the means of their attachment, or P-bolts where appropriate. No-one calls them 'P-anchors' after all... actually P-bolt is a very useful term since it is specific and avoids confusion. Although I note the CNCC have gone for "Eco 'P' type resin anchors"- much better than P-bolt, right?

Essentially you can call things whatever you want as long as a) you define your terms and b) you aren't causing unnecessary confusion...

One of Simon's probably unheralded successes is that it is easier to say 'IC anchor' than 'IC bolt'

 

[Mark Wright]

We had a similar debate when we were revising the IRATA ICOP. We have always traditionally called the short lengths of rope we attach to our harnesses, cow's tails. The ICOP calls them lanyards and if there is, e.g. an ascender attached to the end of it, it is called a device lanyard.

http://www.irata.org/default.php?cmd=215&doc_id=4336

There were some quite heated discussions about the subject at some of the meetings. Most in the industry use their traditional cow's tail and rope names.

Mark

 

[Simon Wilson]

What Droid said.

And-

Although I note the CNCC have gone for "Eco 'P' type resin anchors"- much better than P-bolt, right?

Right.

Essentially you can call things whatever you want as long as a) you define your terms and b) you aren't causing unnecessary confusion...

We are trying to define the terms for important reasons and you are trying to cause unnecessary confusion.

I am one of the people putting my head on the line for the benefit of others. I am one of the people who need to be prepared to give evidence or defend myself in a court. I admit it might seem extremely remote but a legal defence could depend on the definition of a bolt or an anchor.

The last thing the deceased was heard to say was that the bolt must have failed. Mi Lord, this is proof that the deceased had mistakenly attached himself to the spit and not the IC resin anchor even though neither the bolt, the anchor nor the cowstail were ever found again because they were buried under several tons that came down in the massive collapse that followed the fall.

But seriously - the BCA Anchor Policy is a document that could be used in court and so has to use the correct terminology and so do I. The CCNC call them anchors, the BCA call them anchors and the UIAA call them anchors, the British Standards Institute calls them anchors and the European Standards Agency calls them anchors and officially defines the term anchor.

https://www.absturzsicherung.de/en/glossary/en-795

End of.

Now can we stop this and get back on topic.

 

[topcat]

Nah, all the folk I cave with call 'em bolts.  Always.  Never heard anything different  :tease:

 

[droid]

Going to start calling them Bernie...

 

[Simon Wilson]

Nah, all the folk I cave with call 'em bolts.  Always.  Never heard anything different  :tease:

Well you and all the folk you cave with are complete idiots who will be laughing stocks if you ever call them that around the Dales where nobody will call them anything else but anchors from now on because I say so. Have you all got that? Now stop annoying me and leave me alone to get on with what I have to do or you won't have any anchors.  :ras:

 

[Madness]

Climbers over a long period have had an irresponsible attitude to the damage done to crags. They have created an unholy mess and the BMC have not dealt with it very well. Not only have they created a chaotic mess on our crags they have also created  a mess in terminology.

I think climbers would disagree quite strongly

It is still only a very small fraction of UK rock that is permitted to be bolted. Nearly all of it is horrible choss anyway (albeit usually cleaned up by traffic) and usually quarried. Not that there is any body that says you can't bolt this or that - certainly the BMC would never be seen to make such a statement. The BMC regions do have bolt policies but these are written by local climbers, not dictated by the BMC. In any event the BMC would say it was not their job to dictate to climbers - and I would agree. They do do a great job of facilitating dialogue, which is why there is broad agreement across the UK on most issues. Can you say the same in caving?

I'm a climber as well as a caver and I disagree with Simon. Andrewmc has summed it up very well in the above statement.

If you drilled a hole and resined a length of stainless studding into it, to which you installed a hanger and a nut, would you call that an anchor or a bolt? Does anyone know or even care? 

 

[Simon Wilson]

Climbers over a long period have had an irresponsible attitude to the damage done to crags. They have created an unholy mess and the BMC have not dealt with it very well. Not only have they created a chaotic mess on our crags they have also created  a mess in terminology.

I think climbers would disagree quite strongly

It is still only a very small fraction of UK rock that is permitted to be bolted. Nearly all of it is horrible choss anyway (albeit usually cleaned up by traffic) and usually quarried. Not that there is any body that says you can't bolt this or that - certainly the BMC would never be seen to make such a statement. The BMC regions do have bolt policies but these are written by local climbers, not dictated by the BMC. In any event the BMC would say it was not their job to dictate to climbers - and I would agree. They do do a great job of facilitating dialogue, which is why there is broad agreement across the UK on most issues. Can you say the same in caving?

I'm a climber as well as a caver and I disagree with Simon. Andrewmc has summed it up very well in the above statement.

If you drilled a hole and resined a length of stainless studding into it, to which you installed a hanger and a nut, would you call that an anchor or a bolt? Does anyone know or even care? 

Yes, people do know and do care. What you have described is the most common type of resin anchor in the construction industry and it's called a resin stud. If you wanted to order them over the phone you would need to use the correct term for them.
http://www.fastco.co.uk/fixings/fischer-resin-fixings/resin-studs/fischer-m10-x-130-rgm-resin-stud-a4-stainless-steel-50264-pack-of-10.html