Bornea caves on TV

[AndyF]

Well thats interesting, as I certainly got the impression from the prog that it was a new discovery and thus this would be a first decent.

If thats not the case and this was a known cave with a known pitch and probably a known landing then it does put a different complection on it.

Silly me, I believed what the TV told me and used it influence my opinion.....

Still think the parallel rope thing sucks though....

 

[Dep]

...
All told this looked like rope silliness to me, with making good footage taking priority over sensible safety measures.
...

My thoughts too.

But I was also thinking to myself  - "lucky bastards!"

I think TRT is silly - it makes good sense on a construction site with a real risk of your rope being accidentally severed but there it is an unnecessary complication. IMHO.
But law is law - I am sure that a qualified person as stated above would not do anything wrong unless he was compelled to by law - if there is a fault there it comes from Brussels.

I did notice their rather different harness designs though when viewed from below, a much larger area to sit on rather the the regular and uncomfortably narrow SRT harness leg-loops commonly used by UK cavers.

 

[Stu]

Also, didn't notice any sort of chest rig - what if they go upside down.

I did notice their rather different harness designs though when viewed from below, a much larger area to sit on rather the the regular and uncomfortably narrow SRT harness leg-loops commonly used by UK cavers.

It was A Petzl work harness with a full over the head chest harness and the seat is just a posh version of the plank of wood I used to sit on - bosun's chair.

 

[Dep]

Is an excellent programme although annoying that the beeb did their usual thing of look what we found?
Solo was found a few years ago on a previous mulu expedition and the guy in the helicopter was going on about it as if he had found it. I think credit is due to the people who actually found it.

As for the rope work if you had listerned to the programme the Camera woman was experienced with rope work and the man was a moutaineer. On a free hanging pitch like solo there is little chance once over the top that you going to knock anything on the person. It was probably the beeb producer who requested they went down together though.

Can't wait i'm going out there in just over a week.

If he was experienced and that scared it must have been an awesome sight - or the Beeb producing it for dramatic effect.

>>Can't wait i'm going out there in just over a week.
lucky sod!

 

[racingsnake]

Andy

I kind of agree with most of your points  , but as I said earlier in this thread "despite the narrators ( beeb ) spouting crap good prog.
As far as I am aware most if not all of that part of the world has been sat mapped, and all of the surface holes of that size at least are known about. As usual the telly gets it wrong look at the Titan program they had Joe public thinking
it was found last week. I run a fireworks company amoung other things and we had a program made some years ago what a load of crap the director made us do so I think we all need to temper or judgment with the fact that film directors are in the main useless  lovies

 

[starlessriver]

I just like the fact that again they refer to it as "an UNDERGROUND" cave.....so what other types are there? Oh, and the fact they said it was a "Sinkhole"...more a Shakehole I'd say. And, at 160m, it's only 15m deeper than Titan!

Still, the footage of early morning with the sounds of both gibbons and chainsaws really was quite sobering.

It's been a really good series though.

 

[Cookie]

Point 1:
Although two people on the rope is clearly less safe than one, it can still be safe enough. I.e. it can be shown that the redundancy in the system is still more than adequate to provide the required safety margin.

One plane in the sky is clearly safer than two, but to conclude that only one plane can fly at a time would be wrong. No, you put the safety systems in place, work out the acceptable risk and conclude you can safely have hundreds in the sky at the same time.

Point 2:
The reason the whole set-up looks a mess is because these people are at work and must therefore follow the HSE rules. The HSE insist on two ropes, a system colloquially known as Double Rope Technique (DRT).  Of cause we use the more appropriate Single Rope Technique (SRT). The HSE recently tried to push DRT onto cavers and climbers etc. The BCA* and other adventure activity bodies fought hard to stop this, with eventual success.

More info here

* See, the BCA is occasionally useful.   

 

[cap n chris]

See, the BCA is occasionally useful.

Correction. The BCA is frequently useful.

However, many people continue to peddle the myth that the BCA doesn't do much; subsequently it is at risk of undeservedly becoming something of a kicking dog. This is mostly because people, generally* "can't be arsed" with stuff like organising insurance, dealing with HSE regs, governmental and quango diktat, conservation initiatives, training, administration, funding, fixed aids administration, publications etc..

Somewhat ironically, however, I'm rather fond of kicking dogs.

* This is a generalisation.


:-[ Oops! Off thread! Apologias.

 

[AndyF]

Point 2:
The reason the whole set-up looks a mess is because these people are at work and must therefore follow the HSE rules. The HSE insist on two ropes, a system colloquially known as Double Rope Technique (DRT).  Of cause we use the more appropriate Single Rope Technique (SRT).

Well yes, one may assume it was "HSE" driven....but (and I don't know this) is "two on a pitch" allowed under HSE approved rules? My guess is not... 

 

[Stu]

Point 2:
The reason the whole set-up looks a mess is because these people are at work and must therefore follow the HSE rules. The HSE insist on two ropes, a system colloquially known as Double Rope Technique (DRT).  Of cause we use the more appropriate Single Rope Technique (SRT).

Well yes, one may assume it was "HSE" driven....but (and I don't know this) is "two on a pitch" allowed under HSE approved rules? My guess is not... 

The HSE debate may be a bit of a red herring considering the outfit were operating outside of the UK. Local rules would apply at a guess... bit of bamboo scaffold then!!??

Two on a two rope system wasn't unheard of when I was a rope monkey; in this instance it was definitely for the benefit of the camera. It probably wouldn't contravene any regs.

 

[paul]

...
All told this looked like rope silliness to me, with making good footage taking priority over sensible safety measures.
...

I think TRT is silly - it makes good sense on a construction site with a real risk of your rope being accidentally severed but there it is an unnecessary complication. IMHO.
But law is law - I am sure that a qualified person as stated above would not do anything wrong unless he was compelled to by law - if there is a fault there it comes from Brussels.

I bet the ropework wasn't due to local Health & Safety concerns, despite what Brussels say...

 

[graham]

Point 2:
The reason the whole set-up looks a mess is because these people are at work and must therefore follow the HSE rules. The HSE insist on two ropes, a system colloquially known as Double Rope Technique (DRT).  Of cause we use the more appropriate Single Rope Technique (SRT).

Well yes, one may assume it was "HSE" driven....but (and I don't know this) is "two on a pitch" allowed under HSE approved rules? My guess is not... 

The HSE debate may be a bit of a red herring considering the outfit were operating outside of the UK. Local rules would apply at a guess... bit of bamboo scaffold then!!??

Two on a two rope system wasn't unheard of when I was a rope monkey; in this instance it was definitely for the benefit of the camera. It probably wouldn't contravene any regs.

They may have been operating outside the UK, but what jurisdiction controlled their contracts?*










*Just a wind up guys pplleeaassee don't start a serious debate.

 

[martinr]

is "two on a pitch" allowed under HSE approved rules? My guess is not... 

Bugger. Hope I never get stuck on a single rope and have to be rescued by a mate then.

 

[mak]

See, the BCA is occasionally useful.

Correction. The BCA is frequently useful.

However, many people continue to peddle the myth that the BCA doesn't do much; subsequently it is at risk of undeservedly becoming something of a kicking dog. This is mostly because people, generally* "can't be arsed" with stuff like organising insurance, dealing with HSE regs, governmental and quango diktat, conservation initiatives, training, administration, funding, fixed aids administration, publications etc..

Somewhat ironically, however, I'm rather fond of kicking dogs.

* This is a generalisation.


:-[ Oops! Off thread! Apologias.

I thought the main use of the BCA was as a kicking dog  :tease:

obviously all that stuff about insurance, government regulations, access arrangements, training etc. etc. is not something that your average self respecting beer swilling caver ought to concern themselves about 

 

[cap n chris]

is "two on a pitch" allowed under HSE approved rules? My guess is not...

Bugger. Hope I never get stuck on a single rope and have to be rescued by a mate then.

It's OK as long as he's either doing it for fun in his spare time and/or he doesn't charge you and claims only to have rescued you for a lark during his coffee break.

 

[whitelackington]

I managed to see most of The Borneo Programmes, incredibly interesting, doesn't it make you want to get out there and start charging through the jungle, climbing trees, canoing & origonal cave exploring :alien:

 

[Cookie]

I managed to see most of The Borneo Programmes, incredibly interesting, doesn't it make you want to get out there and start charging through the jungle, climbing trees, canoing & origonal cave exploring :alien:

Yes  :alien:  :alien:

 

[Roger W]

Not so sure about having all those bugs swarming round my light as soon as it gets dark, though.  Some people actually like the things, but I don't think I do.  My introduction to working in China was to have an eight-inch long centipede come crawling towards me across my office floor on my first day!

But to crawl through a little hole and find yourself in a MASSIVE passage like that!

Just out of interest, if that sinkhole/shakehole had been there for the huge length of time stated by the commentator, and plants had been growing down there presumably for most of that time, how come no soil?  Happen the floor is just a jumble of loosely piled boulders, with a really, really big, deep, bottomless chasm underneath    :

Gently how you land, lads!

 

[whitelackington]

I also thought, why no soil but it obvious, the virtually constant water hitting the bottom, washes any soil through the choke, if the explores did not enter a streamway, which they did not appear to, then the streamway is
UNDERNEATH THE MONSTER CHOKE :alien: