Braking descenders and backup

[maxf]

I do have quite a bit of experience with all the devices you mention.

Firstly the Sala Stop Descender and the SRTE Noworries descenders. These were designed primarily for an industrial application and whilst they both do everything it says on the box they are quite cumbersome and the SRTE device is very very very heavy and some of the moving parts are very likely to get clogged up with mud.

The DSD device is one of the most complicated to load a rope into and isn't that smooth a descent when compared to other devices.

The I-Block Evo is the same as the DSD but with a different name on the front.

The ISC A-B device has been around for years and has had a number of different names. Its first incarnation was the SAR Scarab, later changed to the SAR Sarab. ISC manufacture them for a number of different companies.

I was involved to a small extent in the development of this device, carrying out long descent trials as part of the requirement for determining the maximum descent distances before they get too hot. If a device claims it can be used on, e.g. 200m decent with a 140kg load then this test would have been carried out with a 140kg test weight with a non-stop 1m / second descent rate for 200m.

If you are looking for a descender device that is good for using as a locking rescue pulley then I'm not aware of anything better. Unfortunately it isn't a very good descender.

During one of the recent International Berger expeditions we had some Bulgarians join the trip and they used a toothed ascender above their Stop / Simple descenders. We had to replace most of the ropes in the entrance series due to the sheaths being seriously damaged due to this technique being used.

If you could be sure you would let go of the Shunt if you lost control of the descent then this could be a useful method, however, it is most unlikely you would let go. You would more likely squeeze the Shunt or its towing cord even tighter and never let go.

Using a Shunt as a back-up device as is being shown on the videos is generally considered to be very dangerous. Most of the fatalities in the rope access industry have been down to not letting go of the device.

I've never heard of a Rack twisting the rope but it has been over 30 years since i've had a go on one.

The ASAP and ASAP Lock devices were again designed for industrial use. I wouldn't recommend using either devices in a muddy cave environment due to the many moving parts. They are also very expensive. ASAPs are the only devices that can't be overridden by the user, i.e. they will still work if you lose control of the descent and grab them or grab the rope above them.

If a Petzl Simple is a bit quick on new and/or thin rope then simply use a breaking carabiner.

Personally I would go for a Petzl Stop every time. If you aren't in a rush there will soon be a new version of the Petzl Stop on the market, I'm currently trialling a prototype.

Mark

How is that different to the same reaction with a stop then ?

 

[Mark Wright]

There isn't much of a difference at all. Clutch and Plummet being the example.

Mark

 

[Tseralo]

I've heard all the arguments for learning SRT with a Simple but to me this is simply ridiculous. An auto locking device is definitely safer and when you get proficient at smooth descents in all conditions and thicknesses of rope then you can either clip a carabiner in the hole of your Stop to deactivate the auto lock mechanism or buy yourself a Simple.

Im a novice caver but experienced climber and these days I won?t abseil on a rope without some kind of auto locking device this was caused by two incidents:

Abing off a multi pitch in a limestone quarry the rope dislodged some rocks above me which rained down I was able to take both hands off and pull in close to the wall limiting what hit me.

Abing off a single pitch where the limestone is very slippery. I was going over the edge when both feet slipped out from under me this swung me face first towards the rocks and instinctively I put both my hands up. If I had held onto the rope I would have smashed my face up and possibly dropped it anyway. If I had dropped it I would almost certainly be dead.

Yes you can?t trust an auto locker 100% but you can?t trust a none locker to lock 1% of the time.

 

[alastairgott]

Tseralo they are valid points, and I agree these are some of the points which people may think about when they decide which descender to use. There are some reasons why you might not want particular types, outlined a few times in various places on this forum.

However, I use a rack (no problems with twisting the rope whatsoever). Thanks to Achapman I now have stainless steel bars which are great for longevity but faster than the aluminium bars I am used to. I've now bought a handy for those times when I know someones going to crack out a brand new 9mm rope and frighten me witless. It always seems to happen when the YSS visit and rig Titan...

Anyway as a case in point, Titan is a freehanging pitch in two parts. If I don't hang onto the rope I'm at the bottom, so I make sure I don't let go.

We don't kick rocks down the pitch, as people wait (cold and patient) at the bottom of the pitch and will likely become Jam if we do. If a rock did become dislodged, there's very little you're going to be able to do.
Because your freehanging.
If you wanted to put your arm up, you could, but it would likely snap! Being careful and considerate is worth ?1000's of Equiment.

Also, as you doubtlessly found out at the weekend, we (cavers) try to use more of our body than climbers to limit the risk. So in your example we'd probably slide down the rock using our knees and lower legs rather than our feet. Doing this gives a much more solid base for controlling sideways movement, and also enables you to have a little control to stop your head smashing into the rock.

 

[DannyW]

I cannot speak for muddy ropes but I no longer use my petzl stop for anything as the handle can get really tiring to use on old or dry dirty ropes. I have switched to a heightec prism and love it, it is another auto stop but requires a lot less effort to control descent rate. Also use a stainless steel rack from Aspiring NZ and that is a bit grabby as the top bars bunch up on the rope even when wet and you do loose a little safety.

Someone else mentioned using your knees instead of your feet and I cannot recommend this enough, I get funny looks but I feel 100% safe with no surprises.

 

[mattajperry]

I have found the ATC XP fine for everything i need. Very simple design with plenty of stopping power ( im 16st + gear)

 

[TheGrave]

Seems like most of you are inclined towards Petzl Stop but I think I'll wait to see the new version first before I make up my mind. In the meantime I need to buy something to keep myself in good shape and I was thinking the CT Acles DX:

https://www.climbingtechnology.com/en/outdoor-en/belay-devices-and-descenders/caving/acles-dx

As far as I can see non-braking descenders are not considered PPE for obvious reasons so they do not conform to any standards (EN, UIAA, anything) and MBS is normally the only parameter listed. Anyone here using this piece of gear? Seems like a slightly improved version of the Petzl Simple with this extra eyelet which looks very useful in terms of preventing situations of descender entering a braking carabiner due to a fall or incorrect arrangement before descent.

One note - I saw in a review on Barrabes I think, that the eyelet cannot take the Raumer Handy so I something like a small quick link should be used.

 

[andrewmcleod]

Seems like a slightly improved version of the Petzl Simple with this extra eyelet which looks very useful in terms of preventing situations of descender entering a braking carabiner due to a fall or incorrect arrangement before descent.

It looks like a copy of an older version of the Petzl Simple (with that extra hole which may/may not be useful - I use a Freino though).

 

[Simon Wilson]

Seems like most of you are inclined towards Petzl Stop but I think I'll wait to see the new version first before I make up my mind. In the meantime I need to buy something to keep myself in good shape and I was thinking the CT Acles DX:

https://www.climbingtechnology.com/en/outdoor-en/belay-devices-and-descenders/caving/acles-dx

As far as I can see non-braking descenders are not considered PPE for obvious reasons so they do not conform to any standards (EN, UIAA, anything) and MBS is normally the only parameter listed. Anyone here using this piece of gear? Seems like a slightly improved version of the Petzl Simple with this extra eyelet which looks very useful in terms of preventing situations of descender entering a braking carabiner due to a fall or incorrect arrangement before descent.

One note - I saw in a review on Barrabes I think, that the eyelet cannot take the Raumer Handy so I something like a small quick link should be used.

Petzl have never changed the design of the bobbins of the Simple since the 1970s and I always wondered why they made them non-interchangeable. The bobbins of the CT Acles are better. Not only are both bobbins identical but they can also be turned through 90 degrees which gives you 8 different faces to place at the bottom and equalise the wear. The extra hole for the braking krab is better in that it makes the braking krab sit right and prevents the braking krab interfereing with the attachment krab but the extra projection is a slight nuisance from time to time. The CT Acles is at least as smooth and controllable as the Petzl Simple. Whether or not it is better in this respect is difficult to judge. I like it and it's another way of avoiding using Petzl gear.

 

[Ian Ball]

From the instructions it appears there is a left hand version?

 

[andrewmcleod]

it's another way of avoiding using Petzl gear.

Your particular motivation for that being? (just curious)

 

[TheGrave]

I cannot speak for muddy ropes but I no longer use my petzl stop for anything as the handle can get really tiring to use on old or dry dirty ropes. I have switched to a heightec prism and love it, it is another auto stop but requires a lot less effort to control descent rate. Also use a stainless steel rack from Aspiring NZ and that is a bit grabby as the top bars bunch up on the rope even when wet and you do loose a little safety.

Someone else mentioned using your knees instead of your feet and I cannot recommend this enough, I get funny looks but I feel 100% safe with no surprises.

Somehow I missed this post 2 years ago and as I still haven't bought a Stop I rediscovered it What's your long-term review on the Prism? Seems like a decent device and price is good as well. Pity I can't find any videos with it online.

 

[zzzzzzed]

I have found the ATC XP fine for everything i need. Very simple design with plenty of stopping power ( im 16st + gear)

I used to use a Petzl Reverso 2 for caving.  It's more robust than most ATC type devices and can handle being scraped along a cave wall in narrow passages.

It has a number of advantages.  It's simpler to use than a Petzl Simple, can be used on double ropes which is safer on a pull through as there is no danger of clipping into the wrong rope and can also be used as an ascender in guide mode.

The main disadvantages of an ATC type device is that there is more chance of dropping it because you have to keep opening the attachment crab and it is harder to lock off.

Nowadays I use a Petzl Simple because I wouldn't want to use an ATC type device on a cave with lots of rebelays.  I'd be bound to drop it sooner or later and (combined with a Freno Z crab) it is so easy to lock off.

I'd still use my Reverso 2 though if I were doing Simpson's pull through with a bunch of climbing mates who prefer abseiling on double ropes though.

 

[LarryFatcat]

Seems like most of you are inclined towards Petzl Stop but I think I'll wait to see the new version first before I make up my mind.

Most people are sticking with the "old" version which is still available new or nearly new on Ebay and elsewhere - a major advantage is that anyone caving with you can, at a glance, see that your Stop is correctly loaded etc, which won't be the case with many of the more exotic devices mentioned