Cable cars in Cheddar

[cap n chris]

In the current jobs climate, most likely minimum wage.

Cheddar Gorge & Caves will probably be taking a major financial hit, too, from the brand new recently opened Hoseseasons Cheddar Woods complex:

http://www.hoseasons.co.uk/lodges/cheddar-woods-lodges-bway?gclid=cp_g1fnkvlocfwbmtaodevqakg&isdlnk=1&scode=bway&tidpdukpark=parkinfo&ispkmd=false&pid=123&ef_id=uyfw7waabvuy3lz-:20131029193447:s

There's no legal or moral reason whatsoever why Hoseseasons can't get their own open-top buses running up and down Cheddar Gorge and thus take a major chunk out of that element of the Gorge's marketing. Cheddar Gorge is probably running a business model that's about 30 years behind the curve.

They seem bereft of vision - why on earth are they not offering via ferrata, bridge swinging, monster abseiling etc... If this was New Zealand they'd be earning ?99+/head doing roped Xtreme stuff and given they are the highest inland cliffs in the UK and there's over 900 bolted rock climbing routes it seems to me a no-brainer to capitalise on that element of their unique characteristic - after all, the Longleat side own the big cliffs, whereas the National Trust just have scree slopes and some rocky outcrops.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

Looking at their facilities it seems they pretty much want to keep folk on site. It wont help the traders at Cheddar at all.

 

[cap n chris]

I'm guessing they're not in the busy of helping the Gorge traders, but rather in the business of helping themselves and their shareholders.

 

[graham]

I'm guessing they're not in the busy of helping the Gorge traders, but rather in the business of helping themselves and their shareholders.

Interesting that you should say that given that in recent years they have encouraged climbers to use the gorge in greater numbers - it was once virtually banned - and that they have been very encouraging indeed to cavers and archaeologists, without taking a penny from any of them. The last time I was in Cheddar it was for the unveiling of a memorial to the late Roger Jacobi who had carried out much of the archaeological digging in Gough's Cave and had advised them on the displays in their museum. They laid on a lunch for, what, forty odd guests and had a bunch of school kids visiting as well. No, their business plan might be forty years out of date, but then so is their attitude towards the wider community. I find that refreshing.

 

[cap n chris]

My comment was referring to Hoseseasons, Graham, not the Showcaves.

 

[graham]

My comment was referring to Hoseseasons, Graham, not the Showcaves.

Apologies, Chris. That was not clear.

 

[chriscastle46]

The new cave guides are on a basic minimum wage, zero hours contract and are sometimes sent home on quiet days. A few of us are having a campaign to make the guides better informed and to stop making stuff up but against that background it's difficult. As far as I know there is not the remotest interest in making Reservoir Hole open to the public, but once the cable car is settled one way or the other, who knows?

As for Via Ferrata and so on, a nice idea in principle but think about the problems - the protests, how to get people to pay, etc. I've been on via Ferratas all over the French Alps, great fun but nearly always free and unrestricted. Can you see that happening in Britain?

 

[Peter Burgess]

The last time I went in Cheddar Caves my guide was in a little hand held thingy and only spoke to me when I pressed the right number.

 

[Les W]

A few of us are having a campaign to make the guides better informed and to stop making stuff up...

This made me chuckle... 

 

[Bottlebank]

I think Chris has a point about the business model, last time I went through Cheddar it reminded me of Blackpool on a wet weekend. Totally uninspiring. Obviously they're going to take a hit over the recession but if footfall is down over a longer timescale I wouldn't be surprised.

Via Ferratas etc would be a great idea, do as they do elsewhere and let them be used for free - it brings in visitors and helps boost the local economy, but you also generate work for instructors and so on. Why don't the Cheddar based CIC's come up with a via ferrata plan?

 

[tony from suffolk]

As for Via Ferrata and so on, a nice idea in principle but think about the problems - the protests, how to get people to pay, etc. I've been on via Ferratas all over the French Alps, great fun but nearly always free and unrestricted. Can you see that happening in Britain?

There's a pretty fine Via Ferrata up here in the Lake District, at Honister Pass and run by the slate mine and quarry tourist attraction.

There have been recent attempts by the quarry people to extend it and a couple of years ago the application to install a rather spectacular zipwire was turned down after lots of fuss, with the tourist industry clashing with environmental concerns, a constant battle in the National Park.

In this particular case the local people and some celebrities who live hereabouts, most notably Chris Bonnigton, think the decision to reject was unreasonable because pretty much the whole of Honister Pass has been extensively quarried and very little that was natural remains.

Of course the situation at Cheddar is completely different and as such I really cannot imagine this cable car going ahead.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

If a money making company is failing which on visitor counts at Cheddar it certainly is it must do something to address the situation or pull out all together. Personally as I have said before the cable car might be the  better option for all concerned assuming they have done their market research and can justify the expense. We live in tawdry times where people seek thrills and excitement without actually getting wet or in danger. Also access is a greater concern now particularly for the disabled. Many of our local woodland walks and fishing spots are now wheelchair friendly . This is a growing trend and such benefits must be shown in any lottery application. The cable car at on the Isle of Wight at the sand coloured cliffs ( also an SSSI ) is hardly a detriment to the place and has done a lot to increase visitor numbers. It all very well to sit back and say "ooo the cable car will look horrid " but the alternative could be worse as Cheddar declines as a visitor attraction and Longleat pull the plug. Worse case scenario I know but at least the current incumbents at Gough's are caver friendly and approachable.

 

[The Old Ruminator]

It occurred to me later. Should it not exist and somebody now wanted to run a railway up Snowdon. Can you imagine the fuss !

 

[grahams]

They should finish the job properly. A few zip wires for the screaming chavs, a wind farm, run a few smog belching Ducks (which aren't allowed on water now as they sink) up and down the road and a few thousand acres of solar panels should finish the place off. They could also bolt all the classic free climbs and bung a few extra climbing wall holds on the hard bits. Could also do with a MacDonalds and Tesco store half way up the Gorge to feed the chavs.

To be serious, comparing the shameful vandalism of one of the South's most impressive geological features to similar vandalism elsewhere doesn't help. Cheddar is losing visitors because it has become a horrible money grubbing hole where the carpark, cafe and show cave owners all have their hands out for large amounts of cash. The place is simply unaffordable for a family of four. The contrast between Cheddar and e.g. Malham is profound. Malham and its surroundings are more or less pristine despite huge visitor numbers and the cafe and pubs give excellent value.

 

[kay]

The contrast between Cheddar and e.g. Malham is profound. Malham and its surroundings are more or less pristine despite huge visitor numbers and the cafe and pubs give excellent value.

That's an interesting comment. Googling suggests that Malham has between 500,000 and 750,000 "visitor days" annually, and Cheddar Gorge 500,000. I would have expected Cheddar to be far busier than Malham. Maybe the Malham visitors spread out more? - Cove, Tarn, village, Goredale Scar ..

 

[Andy Farrant]

Cheddar Gorge is a SSSI for a reason, for both its geological and botanical interest. Having a cable car to carry all those day trippers who infest the lower gorge up to the top of the cliffs where they can trample and damage what is unique and special about the place seems to me to fly in the face of conservation.

Longleat would do much better to tart up what they have got, re-vamp Cox's Mill, and use it to house a 3D cinema, showing a wizzy augmented-reality fly through of the Gorge (and Reservoir Hole for that matter). That way the tourists get a better thrill than a cable car and the gorge is left to those who actually appreciate it and can take the time and effort to walk up to the top. Moreover, they could power the place using hydroelectricity - it was a mill after all,  and use the thermal mass of the river to heat it too.

Andy

 

[tony from suffolk]

I agree that the tourist area at he bottom of the gorge would benefit from a good sprucing-up; it currently resembles a run-down seaside resort.

However, It's unfair and smacks of elitism to imply that only those who are physically capable of exploring the gorge on foot are the only ones who will appreciate its beauty. Old Ruminator makes the valid point that access for the disabled is an important consideration and will no doubt be a significant factor in whether or not the cable car gets planning permission. You can be certain Longleat Estate will be using this in their application.

 

[Duncan Price]

I have been to Matlock and the Heights of Abraham more than once.  The cable car makes a good trip though I have also walked up and down.  Historically there was a cable car up to the viewing tower atop Jacob's Ladder in Cheddar.  There is no doubt that Longloeat Estates are pulling out all the stops to get the public on their side for the cable car project.  Having spent a fair amount of time in the vicinity of Gough's Cave over the summer and now into the autumn, I can say that (this year) Cheddar seems to be very overcrowded in this area.  Its a nightmare to negotiate, now worse since parking restrictions were lifted on the yellow lines for the winter.  I'm not against a cable car on aesthetic or environmental grounds (just witness the quarrying scars on the escarpment as you approach Cheddar from Wedmore and you see a big mess on the manmade landscape of Mendip).  I'm more concerned about the human pressure on an already cramped place.

I've spent a fair amount of time at Malham Cove and didn't realise it was so popular - perhaps thare is a good case for "less is more".  Certainly the relocation of Derek's Tearoom in Cheddar (to make way for a pylon when the cable car is built) to a new building next to the National Trust Shop has affected the drainage by obstructing the resurgence there.

I am grateful to Cheddar Caves for their caver (and climber) friendly attitude.  I'm fairly ambivalent about a cable car.  Any increase in visitor numbers as a consequence will be a nuisance and transitory.  It would be better to knock a lot of the buildings down and turn it into a more pleasant place to visit which would actually attract more people and ???.

I don't know why Lord Bath doesn't just build his cable car and get retrospective planning permission like Gerry Cottle did with the crazy golf course at Wookey Hole.*

* has anyone been up before the beak for desecrating and SSSI with paint?

 

[David Rose]

I think the climbing community would not be happy with the idea of building via ferrata at one of the most important crags in southern England, and pleasant as it might be, it would not reverse a decline in visitor numbers of the scale described. How would cavers feel if Reservoir Hole became the site of guided cave trips for paying adventure tourists, with fixed ladders down the pitch into TFD? Rightly, I suspect most would regard it as a conservation disaster.

Maybe the way forward for Cheddar is for Longleat to accept that whatever it does, it will never restore its visitor numbers to anything like what they were, and to make preserving the place its top priority. If that means demolishing Cox's Hotel, that would not be a bad thing, either.

There is nothing very appealing about a bankrupt, disused cable car, which is what this would surely become if it were ever built.

 

[Andy Sparrow]

Most of you will be aware that Cheddar Caves has run Adventure Caving sessions for 30 years.  Over the last decade it has introduced instructed climbing, and just in the last few months it has developed an underground abseil.  These activities generate relatively small incomes but it all adds up, and it all helps to attract visitors to the gorge.    I enjoy via ferrata immensely and have long thought that the gorge could provide a sensational route.  Some elements of the climbing community would, no doubt, howl in protest but they would do well to remember that climbing on the southern side of the gorge is only permitted through the goodwill of Longleat, and they might be wise to mute their objections.  Yes, a via ferrata would cut across some routes (most of them obscure, seldom used trad routes) but it would bring a lot of pleasure to many people without any great environmental detriment.    It would also be another income stream for Longleat, one which has the added bonus of striking media images.  There has been discussion on this thread about the possible commercialisation of the Frozen Deep - I  suspect this is inevitable, but not as a conventional showcave.  A much more likely scenario is a minimal development without electric lighting.  I would envisage a limited number of visitors equipped with headtorches buying an expensive (?40 per head?) elitist experience.  Yet another income stream, yet more publicity and media attention, and all for a very low cost.

As for the cable car...  Let's put things in perspective.  Driving down the gorge it would be invisible until you reach the coach park.  The footprint is small.  The National Trust may be robustly against this development but they, and Natural England, have hardly proved to be effective guardians of the gorge and its environs.  Take a look at the hideous chain link fence opposite Cooper's  Hole.  Then there was the NT scheme to fence along their side of the road down the entire length of the gorge - a plan abandoned after vehement local protests.  Worse than this is the ludicrous abomination of the three sided goat enclosure - the two metre high fence extending for hundreds of metres funded by NE and supported by NT.  What a genius idea - only three sides because the gorge will contain the goats on the fourth side.... I don't need to tell you what happened. 

All this hysterical fuss about a cable car while a mile away the Mendip Hills are blasted into oblivion.    And all of this while Goughs Cave and Cox's Cave operate without sufficient staff or security precautions.  Where is the Speakers Staff of Cox's Cave?  If Natural England were doing their job Longleat would have prosecuted by now for their failure to protect the SSSIs under their stewardship.