• Hello From Descent

    The publication date for issue 289 is the 10th of December, meaning subscribers should receive their copies during the week leading up to that date. It is also available from caving suppliers such as Inglesport and Starless River, or from our new website

    New Descent board here:

Camping on NRW land, complaint received by CAL

royfellows

Active member
As a director of Cave Access Ltd I have just received a complaint from Natural Recources Wales regarding an individual who was caught camping by the Hafna Mine. He told the NRW officer that he was doing work in the mine but nothing else. Please be aware that a permit from CAL relates only to mine access and not to any other activity such as camping or vehicle access.

Overnight camping is an offence under Forestry Bylaws of 1982 and NRW have the power to prosecute offenders.
In simple speak, please dont anybody rock the boat.
 

AlanClark

New member
And if it was in Scotland.... Dare I mention the enlightened legislation which is the Land Reform Act alllowing camping unless you are in the very small prescibed list. Time the rest of the UK moved with the tide.
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
Obviously camping (including sleeping in vehicles) is going to be a problem anywhere so touristy (and this person also committed the sin of breaking the 11th commandment!). But the overnight parking aspect - is that also against Gwydir bylaws?
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
I've always understood the 11th commandment to mean "don't get caught".

I ask about overnight parking though because I'm pushed for spare time and keep weird hours sometimes. Like having unavoidable stuff in the morning, only driving to Wales in the afternoon and not even getting to a carpark until 17:00 or 18:00 so not getting back to car again until 02:00 - 04:00 if a long one and driving home again (Redbull and ear-bleeding loud music is required for driving). I worry someone comes past at 03:00 and give me a ticket assuming I'm wild camping. Some places (like Dinorwig Bus stop) it's prohibited and occasionally patrolled, other places it seems to cause no problems (like Cwmorthin Road parking). Wondering if Hafna parking would rock the boat, I assume so? but don't know, so never parked there at weird times, but wondering...
 

royfellows

Active member
There is a peripheral issue in that NRW, who inherited the old Forestry Byelaws, are in a position to prosecute whether a notice forbidding whatever is posted or not. So the lack of a notice would not form a defence. This position would of course be challengeable in the UK supreme court in the same way as the old 30 mph speed limit if lamp posts are so far apart. This is off the top of my head and would need research.
Camping or overnight parking at Hafna is pushing the boat out a bit and lacks 'discretion'.
As far as the individual concerned in the incident, I can say that that identity has been obtained from the car number plate and NRW are considering prosecution. This is from the NRW officer to whom I spoke. I was also told that the area would be regularly patrolled.

The Byelaws also cover entering a mine without authorisation, this however this comes within the remit of CAL. Landowner is Welsh Government with whom we have our legal agreement, NRW manage the land on behalf of the WG.

I repeat what I said in my original posting about not rocking the boat. The agreement we have with WG is very fortunate for everyone, so please dont be the minority that has to spoil it for everyone else.
 

Fulk

Well-known member
As regards 'wild camping' in Scotland, I turned on Radio 4 today to listen to the 1 o'clock news, just in time to hear someone saying, at the close of the previous item, that you're only allowed to go wild camping in Scotland if you're on foot, not if you're in a car (I daresay the same applies if you're in a canoe, and possibly if you're cycling).
 

zzzzzzed

Member
As regards 'wild camping' in Scotland, I turned on Radio 4 today to listen to the 1 o'clock news, just in time to hear someone saying, at the close of the previous item, that you're only allowed to go wild camping in Scotland if you're on foot, not if you're in a car (I daresay the same applies if you're in a canoe, and possibly if you're cycling).
You see campervans and motorhomes parked up all over the North of Scotland, there are hundreds of them.

If you want to park up for the night anywhere there's an app called Park4Night which can show you where to go.
 

Fjell

Active member
Whoever invented that ”500 mile” thing should just be taken out and shot.
You see campervans and motorhomes parked up all over the North of Scotland, there are hundreds of them.

If you want to park up for the night anywhere there's an app called Park4Night which can show you where to go.
Whoever invented that ”500 mile” thing should just be taken out and shot.
 

topcat

Member
As regards 'wild camping' in Scotland, I turned on Radio 4 today to listen to the 1 o'clock news, just in time to hear someone saying, at the close of the previous item, that you're only allowed to go wild camping in Scotland if you're on foot, not if you're in a car (I daresay the same applies if you're in a canoe, and possibly if you're cycling).

They will have been referring to the Land Reform Act which indeed does not apply to motorised access. However, it is not illegal to sleep in a vehicle.

The no overnight parking signs in Glen Coe were removed some years ago because they had no legal status.
 

ttxela2

Active member
We had a very pleasant fortnight in Scotland earlier in the year in our own 'lumbering white thing' we did avoid the NC 500 mostly due to the reports of hostility towards motorhomes that we had heard reported.

I don't think I pissed off any more people than I would have normally have done in an equivalent time period spent elsewhere....
 

Cantclimbtom

Active member
My work colleague did a sort of NC500 a couple of weeks ago as a family holiday, but more intelligently because he didn't stick to some exact tick-list mentality so he missed a section and saw what he wanted and spent some time on Skye instead, nor did he try to get round at speed like the cannonball run. He mentioned that there was a boat trip out from quayside at Talisker and the skipper/guide inflated some fish (so they wouldn't sink) and threw them overboard and a pair of Golden Eagles (about 2m wingspan) are used to this event and swoop down to grab the fish from the water fairly close to the boat. Sounds like a trip to go on if up there - bring the camera!

Not certain on the environmental impact, at least from a carbon footprint perspective anyway, since I was away at the same time on my family holiday diving in Corfu. So I don't feel very safe to cast judgements NC500'ing myself. Admittedly, viewing it from a tCO2e footprint value is probably a different perspective than I'd have if I lived/worked on the route
 

ttxela2

Active member
I find the ones that tow another car behind them to be especially fascinating.

I know a few folk that do that. At first it does seem a little daft and you wonder why they don't have a car and caravan however having talked to them about it there are a number of advantages.
  • To have an equivalently sized caravan they would need a large car and so when not on holiday would be needlessly driving around a large vehicle with all the expense that entails (unless wealthy enough to own multiple cars).
  • They are equipped for both touring when you move on each night and longer stays on a single site (touring with a caravan can be a bit of a faff).
  • Towing a light car with a heavy motorhome is perceived as a it safer than towing a heavy caravan with a light car (albeit correctly weight matched).
Personally we tend to carry eBikes with us and explore more locally to where we are staying.
 

ttxela2

Active member
Not certain on the environmental impact, at least from a carbon footprint perspective anyway, since I was away at the same time on my family holiday diving in Corfu. So I don't feel very safe to cast judgements NC500'ing myself. Admittedly, viewing it from a tCO2e footprint value is probably a different perspective than I'd have if I lived/worked on the route

It's something I ponder on from time to time, obviously holidaying in what is effectively a small lorry is never going to be super 'green' however I console myself with the following thoughts.
  • What I'd probably be doing instead might involve air travel which would certainly be worse.
  • Previously a UK holiday for us would typically involve travelling fair distances each day to sights or attractions in the car once at our destination. This has been replaced by exploring more locally by foot, eBike or kayak.
  • Having to collect all your water from a tap in a field and carry it to your 'home' makes you a lot more aware/careful of consumption.
  • We tend to eat a lot more locally sourced foods and support more local businesses rather than big supermarkets and chain stores due to limited travel options once pitched up.
 
Top