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Carbon dioxide - again

mrodoc

mrodoc

Well-known member
Did a trip to Swildons Sump 2 on Saturday incidentally meeting Whitelackington for the first time in the narrowest part of the inclined rift - no escape.  I think he recognised me from my avatar - and no there isn't a prize if you meet me although if you are really unlucky you might be asked to pose for a photo.

Anyway on the way back from two we were shifting and I just couldn't get my breath. This was the case all the way back to somewhere near Barnes Loop.  I have a rather odd heart problem and thought it was that but then several other members of the party who had only gone to Sump 1 announced they had had the same sensation as well. It is that characteristic CO2 hyperventilation where you feel you just cannot expand your lungs enough.  Anybody else been in Swildons recently and felt more puffed than they should be?
 
graham

graham

New member
Pete

I haven't heard any unusual reports from anywhere on Mendip for some time, but the problem in Swildons that you describe has been present on-and-off for some years now.

Even fit people (i.e. not me) suffer from it.
 
W

Walrus

Guest
I had the same problem on a trip to sump one a few weeks ago. My two companions were ok, so I thought it was just me - but now It could be more than just my general fitness. Interesting.
 
cap n chris

cap n chris

Well-known member
The air has been ever-so-slightly-noticably less than its usual freshness recently, with both Bru and I detecting it as not up to its usual niceness but certainly nowhere in the league of "poor" at the mo.
 
mrodoc

mrodoc

Well-known member
What makes it difficult to diagnose is that we have different levels of CO2 tolerance so that some people may be much more sensitive to it than others. I have a pretty low tolerance I suspect.  Fitness probably doesn't come into it as what the carbon dioxide does is stimulate receptor sites that increase the breathing rate so however fit you are if you are co2 sensitive you will automatically start to hyperventilate. Might explain why some members of a party seem relatively immune.
 
Rob

Rob

Well-known member
Yer, that makes sense. A few of us from SUSS were down there a couple weeks back and most of us were fine. However Caveaholic was definately short of breath around the Sump 1 area, and he's as fit as the rest of us. At the time we put this down to the fact he was freediving Sump 1 naked for next year's calendar, but i suppose it might have been the CO2 levels.  :-\
 
W

Walrus

Guest
Aside from expensive testing kits, is there a cheap/simple way to test for CO2? (apart from looking at me and asking 'you ok'?)
 
finster

finster

New member
If I remember correctly C02 is heavy, lighting a match hold it high to start then lower it,  the flame will decrease in size as you go lower, may even go out, if there is a build up of CO2. Flame may change colour, however, farting at this point may not be wise though...
 
Bob Smith

Bob Smith

Member
I have both a CO2 monitor and a flame safety lamp, and live right over Swildon's now so i may be able to nip down and and have a looksee some time this week. looks like a busy week for me with the weather station out of action as well!
 
whitelackington

whitelackington

New member
mrodoc said:
Did a trip to Swildons Sump 2 on Saturday incidentally meeting Whitelackington for the first time in the narrowest part of the inclined rift - no escape.  I think he recognised me from my avatar - and no there isn't a prize if you meet me although if you are really unlucky you might be asked to pose for a photo.

Anyway on the way back from two we were shifting and I just couldn't get my breath. This was the case all the way back to somewhere near Barnes Loop.  I have a rather odd heart problem and thought it was that but then several other members of the party who had only gone to Sump 1 announced they had had the same sensation as well. It is that characteristic CO2 hyperventilation where you feel you just cannot expand your lungs enough.  Anybody else been in Swildons recently and felt more puffed than they should be?
Click to expand...

Hello again mrodoc, yes i did recognise you from your photo.
Yes we were puffing back up from sump one to the ladder.
I thought I was just old but the others were puffing too, including my mate duncan who does hurdling but not in caves.
 
shotlighter

shotlighter

Active member
paul said:
It is possible to use safety lamps to a certain extent. Shotlighter?
Click to expand...
Certainly is, as a method of measuring O2 depletion & so indirectly CO2 (if it is this which is displacing the O2).
With flame set to 10mm in fresh air & lamp fueled with colsalene (lighter fuel is a good subsitute as long as you're not testing for lo level CH4) the flame will go out at about 17% O2.
As most O2 depletion cases in UK caves/mines seem to be CO2 related, it is indeed heavier than air. If you suspect this, test by advancing slowly into the passage with the lamp held low. If the lamp goes out, so do you, again steadily & carefully so as not to stir up low lying bad air (also called Black Damp).
It is important not to rush blindly out & risk a trip/fall. I've been in workings where above waist height is breathable air but at floor level the O2 content was well below 10% - a trip headfirst into this would probably be your last.
One final point about lamp fuel, some so called Utility Lamps (eg. Wolf FS & Protector 1A) are designed to run on parafin NOT colsalene/lighter fuel.
None of the above is intended to provide exact measurment of CO2, but should keep you out of trouble.
 
Bob Smith

Bob Smith

Member
Shotlighter, do you know of anywhere i can get hold of colzalene? I have a Protector G6RS lamp with the Garforth aspiration port on side and wouldn't mind trying it out. Or is lighter fuel acceptable?
 
shotlighter

shotlighter

Active member
Bob Smith said:
Shotlighter, do you know of anywhere i can get hold of colzalene? I have a Protector G6RS lamp with the Garforth aspiration port on side and wouldn't mind trying it out. Or is lighter fuel acceptable?
Click to expand...
To be honest, unless you have a tame pit lamphouse man to hand, it's like Dobby Horse muck. AFAIA you can only buy it in 45 Gallon drums at over £600 a go, last time I priced it up.
I do have a gallon or so that I keep for emergencies (for DCROs lamps). If you're passing this way I could let you have a couple of fills worth.
The real difference between colsalene & lighter fuel is in the size of the "fuel cap". Colsa is blended to give as small a fuel cap as possable, when the lamp is set with a "testing flame". This enables the very small "gas cap" that you get with 1 1/4% methane to be distinguished. The "fuel cap" from lighter fuel would no doubt mask this. To the average caver/mine explorer this is of little account, as you are unlikely to be able to spot a 1 1/4% gas cap anyway, unless you've had some training in a test gallery & have plenty of practice.
Using lighter fuel you'd probably be able to see 2% methane & you'd certainly see methane before it got to 5% ( the lower explosability limit).
If you intend using your lamp for black damp, there should be little difference between the two fuels, both of which are similar petroleum spirits.
Hope this helps.
 
W

Walrus

Guest
Cookie said:
Walrus said:
Aside from expensive testing kits, is there a cheap/simple way to test for CO2? (apart from looking at me and asking 'you ok'?)
Click to expand...

Yes. A BIC lighter. See http://thelances.org/hr3/badair.html#TESTING

NB This method assumes that the CO2 displaces the O2 which is what normally happens in caves - but not always.
Click to expand...

Cool - better than nothing (and a lot cheaper than a proper detector). Now, how do I keep it dry & easily accessible in Swildons? ;)
 
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