Cave Litter? Or essential fixed aids?

[Cave Mapper]

This thread http://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?topic=14150.0 discusses the merits of the fixed rope on the KMC roof tunnel pitch.

But there is an important wider question, which is: do we want to remove more of the various 'unnecessary' fixed aids in other less accessible locations?

I'm thinking of:

- The Wretched Rabbit rift climbs
- The Fall Pot rope climb
- The Wormway pitches
- The Pippikin pitches
- The Dowbergill Passage ropes
- Cigalere

Probably not in many cases.  But where do you draw the line?

What should the general principles be for justifying permanent fixed aids in caves?

I personally would like to keep all of those listed above (except perhaps Pippikin). But I would really like CNCC to look after them and keep them safe for us.

 

[damian]

A very useful post. Personally I would also like to see the more popular fixed aids looked after (and most importantly) centrally paid for so it doesn't fall to the same few people. There are a number of ropes in Ireby, Notts II and Lost John's that spring to mind and probably need to remain and so, given that they're on key through-trip routes, in my view ought to be adopted by CNCC.

I should add that I would be happy to be responsible for an annual check of them.

 

[Cave_Troll]

I assume these are ropes giving access up to higher levels?
Can you not install a pull up system or are these pitches not just simple single hangs?

 

[damian]

I assume these are ropes giving access up to higher levels?
Can you not install a pull up system or are these pitches not just simple single hangs?

There are a number on the Ireby Cripple Creek Round Trip. The rope up to (or down from) Jupiter Cavern has several rebelays, there is then a fixed traverse line around a big hole and a short pitch up and back down. Granted all but Jupiter Cavern could be dealt with by rigging and derigging as you go, or by a pull-up system but I'm not sure that's the best solution to be honest.

The rope up to Lyle Caverns in Lost John's could be a pull-up one.

Pull-up systems are not something that has made its way to the Dales in the same way as it has in the Peaks. Definitely worth considering.

 

[Cave Mapper]

In Lost John's there are also the rope climbs above the tube (very tatty last time I was there), the muddy climb below Cresta Run and the climb up the sloping tube to Lyle Caverns - all pretty essential.

 

[dunc]

- The Wretched Rabbit rift climbs
- The Fall Pot rope climb
- The Wormway pitches
- The Pippikin pitches
- The Dowbergill Passage ropes
- Cigalere

I assume these are ropes giving access up to higher levels?

All the above (can't remember about Dowbergill ropes, it's been a few years) form part of popular through trips as either entrances or exits, or mid-trip-pitches etc and to rig prior to a trip would require a long walk over the fell and/or a fair amount of extra time underground to enjoy such a trip. To refer to the original thread about Valley you walk past the entrance and can have it easily rigged in 15mins! To say for example rig Pip, then exit Mistral, before heading to Top/wherever youstart the through trip from would add a few hours to a trip (3-4 according to Mr C's fine book).

It would be nice to see Wretched ropes go, or be less intrusive, as they were a bit over the top (unless something has changed since I last went) with an almost continuous run of rope and rebelays from the top to the bottom. If rope is needed rig each drop with a short handline, they are actually all climbable without rope, with some being more tricky than others and after a through trip most people may well need a rope, but please not so much of it!

 

[NOZ]

What is wrong with exchange trips?

Did Pip to Top and vice versa years ago. We had a team in each direction.
Rigging and Derigging - Pip, Top, Echo Aven, 88ft Pitch plus Link and Lancs, so that; larger and/or more tired; cavers could enter and exit.
This only requires 2 teams of 2.

 

[Simon Beck]

Some of the dowbergill ropes are definitely in need of been replaced. For those well versed with the place the ropes I feel are unnecessary and I only use a few cos they're there and save time. But for those unfamiliar I definitely feel some of the fixed aids are a necessity. But personally and considering I do this trip fairly frequently would prefer it fell to people like myself or the folk I operate with or similar, clubs in the locality wrpc etc or uwfra, than an organisation like the cncc, not that I've anything against the organisation, just feel a job like this should be undertaken by those who know the place best.

 

[Glenn]

But personally and considering I do this trip fairly frequently would prefer it fell to people like myself or the folk I operate with or similar, clubs in the locality wrpc etc or uwfra, than an organisation like the cncc, not that I've anything against the organisation, just feel a job like this should be undertaken by those who know the place best.

Hi Simon, agreed. It is physically impossible for CNCC to do everything, that's why we look for voilunteers for projects like this. CNCC can provide whatever is required (speficially for Dowbergill or generally for other projects) so that voluteers like your self (?) use the best materials and are not out of pocket.