Cave Rescue Procedures

[thehungrytroglobite]

Moderator note: posts split from original thread: https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/incident-04-2024-10-02-24-23-50-easegill.31561/


I would like to highlight that the initial call out was left for 2230, and the police were called VERY shortly afterwards (by 2235). The police clearly did not know the procedure at all, asking an extensive number of detailed questions (such as the post code for Bullpot farm, which needed to be googled to find it), which wasted precious time. After this, they then didn't call CRO until 2350, which wasted further time. CRO only started information gathering with the person who had the call out from this point onwards (I know they can't act until they have been officially called by the police, so not criticising CRO for this!). Basically, the incompetence of the police significantly increased the time before the missing party were reached. This is not a standalone case, I know of many further instances in which the police have made a call out considerably more difficult, sometimes even saying that 'cave rescue don't exist'. The fact that cave rescues are niche and uncommon is no excuse, all phone handlers should be adequately trained in the different types of rescue teams, various scenarios they may encounter, and correct associated procedures. This is obviously a serious and recurring issue, and I hope the BCRC may be able to address it.

 

[alanw]

See my previous, similar experience where I called from Gaping Gill, was connected to Lancashire Police, and it took 50 minutes for them to forward the call on to North Yorkshire and then for CRO to call me back.

https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/calling-cave-rescue-via-999.30248/#post-369540

and my follow-up

Calling cave rescue via 999 ?

After a recent discussion with someone regarding how to call cave rescue, it got me wondering if there was any other route to use ? Im thinking the 101 number? Calling 999 to report “Bob and Bill late from an Easegill trip “ would feel a bit “awkward” in the current climate. Calling having...

ukcaving.com

 

[alastairgott]

Perhaps this is a case of cave rescue groups/BCRC pushing the message back through UKSAR about what we are experiencing.

There must be some document provided by UKSAR which points the police to the difference between different lowland search teams, different MR teams, different beach lifeguard, different coast guard teams. There will 100% be a crib sheet for call handlers to divvy out the jobs. We just need to reaffirm our position on that crib sheet.

 

[alanw]

This isn't just about cavers. The CRO annual report 2023 shows 66 mountain incidents and 8 caving in 2022, 64/4 in 2021. It can only be a matter of time before these delays result in a serious outcome after e.g. hypothermia.

See this incident - overdue on Fountains Fell Although their first 999 call had gone to North Yorkshire Police, the second, saying all was well, had gone to Lancashire Constabulary and had not, at that point, been communicated to either rescue team.

And Lost on Ingleborough, suffering from hypothermia, Their 999 call had gone to Lancashire Constabulary and was passed to NYP to call CRO. Unfortunately, the PhoneFind app did not work and the number that both forces had been given said ‘This number is incorrect'.

Phone signal in the Dales is very variable, often the caller will have to be some distance from the casualty, usually in a location exposed to the elements. They should not be expected to have to wait there when they should be providing support to the casualty.

Mobiles can make emergency calls via another provider if they have no signal from their own, however they cannot be called back.

There must be a way for the Police forces to transfer calls between them and make a three way call adding in CRO who, with their local knowledge will be far better at identifying the location.

 

[alastairgott]

Well I guess it would be good to resolve that too, with UKSAR perhaps having a meeting with mobile companies and putting across a case that designated numbers should be allowed to breakthrough.

Mobiles can make emergency calls via another provider if they have no signal from their own, however they cannot be called back.

 

[Bob Mehew]

Perhaps this is a case of cave rescue groups/BCRC pushing the message back through UKSAR about what we are experiencing.

I may be not up to date, but the problem of failing to get quickly through to police and then cave rescue has occurred in the past. That is why the advice on the initial 999 call out is "In an emergency if you need the assistance of a UK cave rescue team you should dial 999 and ask for the Police, then for Cave Rescue." What you might not be aware is that after you dial 999, it is answered by a 999 operator whose main task is to divert the call to the relevant police / fire / ambulance / coast guard group. These 999 operators will deal with almost all of the around 35 million calls per year both accurately and timely. However when the variant of cave rescue (or mountain rescue) comes up which is around 40 times per year (or around 2500 per year for mountain rescue) it is understandable if the 999 operators says "what". Be honest and ask yourself if you would remember how to deal with that a one in a million variant, a call you may only get once or twice in a lifetime.

The 999 operator role is primarily to divert the call to one of the four main responders. So if you get confusion from them, then just request the police. Then tell the police you are after cave rescue. However, given the police 999 call handlers take some 12 million calls per year, there is a chance they also may not be familiar with cave rescue. I don't know of a sure way around that problem but one variant you might like to consider if you have the misfortune to be in that situation, is to say if you get a confused response "Can I talk with your supervisor?" There is a small chance that the supervisor may be aware of cave (or mountain) rescue. Of course it is on their 'crib sheets', but again would you recall how to imediately respond that infrequent a request?

Disclaimer - I am not associated with BCRC or any cave rescue team so cannot speak for them. My awareness of the situation is due to me sitting on a sub committee to a committee organised by HM Coast Guard, now defunct, which did have this topic raised well over a decade ago.

 

[mikem]

For mobiles I think there are only four 999 call centres in UK, two in England, one in Scotland and one in Northern Ireland, so they often have no idea what you are talking about. Landlines go to the local operator (although that may not be helpful if the call out is from a different area to the incident)

 

[andrewmcleod]

I don't know if the 999 operator can put you through to a particular police force, or whether you can only be routed to your 'nearest' one.

Edit: brief googling suggests it cannot; they will have to take details and then pass on to the relevant police force.

I also suspect a missed callout may be treated with less urgency than a reported injury or similar (not unreasonably). The police are probably dealing with more serious calls on any given night.

 

[mikem]

I think that you can request from mobile, as go to central clearing. Not so sure about landline

To give an idea, there are c.4000 emergency calls per hour, but less than 0.01% of those are mountain/ cave related (7 per day)

 

[aricooperdavis]

This is something that the MREW region, in this case the Yorkshire Dales Rescue Panel, should be able to raise with the police forces, as they represent the interests of the regions SAR teams.

 

[hannahb]

@thehungrytroglobite can you say a bit about the route the cavers had taken and what caused the overdueness and call-out? Just curious. No problem if it's private.

 

[cavingbiker]

Surely a simple look-up facility on the operator's screens could accommodate the few and far between requests that come through for "Cave Rescues" etc, and provide the necessary next step/follow-up procedure details.

 

[Badlad]

@thehungrytroglobite can you say a bit about the route the cavers had taken and what caused the overdueness and call-out? Just curious. No problem if it's private.

I heard they had pulled down County and then couldn't find Manchester Bypass.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

@thehungrytroglobite can you say a bit about the route the cavers had taken and what caused the overdueness and call-out? Just curious. No problem if it's private.

I'd rather not give too much detail to protect privacy etc. However what Badlad said is pretty much correct. They did an exchange but couldn't find the Manchester Bypass, and by that point PJ had been de-rigged by the other group.
The police cluck-up (I don't know if I'm allowed to swear on UKC so I made that word up just now) lengthened the situation, CRO were tipped off about the incident quickly but couldn't really act until the police call came through due to legalities. Luckily in this situation, the lengthened time didn't matter too much as the group were very well prepared, with shelters and spare snacks etc.

 

[rm128]

Apologies if I’m completely off the mark, but from the few details given it does seem like this may have been an unnecessary rescue. Attempting an exchange, or a pull-through, in a complex system when you don’t know the way seems like a pretty basic mistake. Also, the callout time was 22:30 and the alarm was raised at 22:35. Was it not possible for the other exchange team to do something before raising the alarm? Again, apologies if there are factors I’m not aware of.

Of course, none of that detracts from the gist of the discussion above. I just wonder if we need to look to ourselves a bit before blaming an under-resourced and over-burdened emergency service.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

Apologies if I’m completely off the mark, but from the few details given it does seem like this may have been an unnecessary rescue. Attempting an exchange, or a pull-through, in a complex system when you don’t know the way seems like a pretty basic mistake. Also, the callout time was 22:30 and the alarm was raised at 22:35. Was it not possible for the other exchange team to do something before raising the alarm? Again, apologies if there are factors I’m not aware of.

Of course, none of that detracts from the gist of the discussion above. I just wonder if we need to look to ourselves a bit before blaming an under-resourced and over-burdened emergency service.

A lot of problems in emergency services at the moment are due to issues with management and inefficient procedures. It's not always about being under-resourced and over-burdened. In the case of police not responding efficiently to cave rescues, this is something that has happened many many times over and is more about them not responding appropriately, some potential solutions that could easily be implemented have been highlighted by others above.

The two groups were not really related, they were simply sharing ropes. The group that had already exited was not aware of the other group's call out, so could not have gone underground to look for them. Furthermore, they did not really have the skills and experience to do this. It was very sensible for CRO to get involved, rather than risk a bigger rescue with double the number of casualties. It would have been very odd for the person with the call out to phone up Bullpot Farm, and say 'could you guys go underground to find this overdue group, because I don't want to bother CRO'. My partner was the first person to head out on Saturday night, and though he was certainly exhausted from having to go straight to work afterwards and not sleeping for 36 hours, I am sure that he would prefer to be exhausted and help the overdue group, than to put a less well-equipped group at unnecessary risk, which could potentially lead to a more complex and drawn-out rescue. I don't think calling CRO when a group misses their call-out is ever something that should be criticised.

Pulling-through without being sure of the way, and without a description for a back up exit (such as Wretched) was indeed a mistake. But we all make mistakes. I can think of many more experienced cavers who have made considerably more idiotic mistakes in the past. Making mistakes is part of being human, a part of the learning process, and in this case the mistake was very minor. Instead of thinking about what the group did wrong, it's maybe best to think about what they did right - leave a good call out, be sufficiently equipped, wait somewhere they knew CRO would find them easily, etc.

 

[Samouse1]

Was it not possible for the other exchange team to do something before raising the alarm?

As said above, the groups weren’t related, but the other group was staying at the farm, whereas the rescued party was not. The snow drift blocking the road meant that both parties were parked further down the fell, and those staying at the farm had seen lights heading that way earlier in the night and assumed it was them out! They didn’t know anything about the rescue until the police (and later me) appeared at the Farm door at one in the morning.

As the Troglobite said, the party deserves recognition for making the job an hell of a lot easier by being well prepared. Mistakes do happen, that’s why the CRO exists, and personally I don’t mind the call-outs, however “unnecessary” they are deemed to be, because I like to know that in the (probably inevitable) event that I make a mistake and need rescuing, people will be willing to give up a nights sleep for me.

One thing I found amusing was the keyboard warriors on Facebook saying “Why were they out given the weather forecast?” It was a really nice day for caving, water levels were fine, and it was actually a really pleasant walk across the fell in the morning!

 

[rm128]

Thanks for clarifying @thehungrytroglobite. We have, indeed, all made mistakes. Hopefully lessons have been learned.

With regard to the emergency service response, perhaps we need to bear in mind that this was a group of (presumably) adults 5 minutes overdue in an environment were adults get lost all the time. Are we really expecting the emergency services to give this top priority? Of course I would expect things to be different if an actual serious incident had been confirmed. Just my view. I'm really not having a go at any individuals.

 

[thehungrytroglobite]

Thanks for clarifying @thehungrytroglobite. We have, indeed, all made mistakes. Hopefully lessons have been learned.

With regard to the emergency service response, perhaps we need to bear in mind that this was a group of (presumably) adults 5 minutes overdue in an environment were adults get lost all the time. Are we really expecting the emergency services to give this top priority? Of course I would expect things to be different if an actual serious incident had been confirmed. Just my view. I'm really not having a go at any individuals.

I would think that the information should be passed onto CRO (or the local cave rescue team) and that it should be up to their discretion to choose how to proceed. Rather than someone with no knowledge of caving to make the decision.

 

[paul]

Moderator comment: Further posts are in a new thread at https://ukcaving.com/board/index.php?threads/cave-rescue-procedures-continued.31560/