Cavers - why do we bicker about access so much?

[Brains]

I particularly like how you have resisted the urge to install a concrete and steel gate, leader system, postal requests only, selected clubs only, bone fide handshake users only, and only using your lamps policy.
I can imagine NRW are pleased to wash their hands of such a dangerous asset with all the paperwork that entails, and let you do all the work of sorting out the hordes beating a path to the entrance... 

 

[royfellows]

I am starting to really like you.

 

[Brains]

I am starting to really like you.

it was the bit about only using your lamps wasnt it 

 

[royfellows]

We never bicker about lamps do we?

 

[todcaver]

Bickering caused one of the entrances to be blocked ! Possibly more ! Or so I've been led to believe , apparently you didn't or don't need a 500 metre rope you just had too / have to be in a special club that nobody's allowed to join ! 

...and that in a nutshell is caving politics in the NW Outcrop...

Yep , I thought so , something needs to be done to bring down this North Wales dictatorship ! 

 

[cavemanmike]

...and that in a nutshell is caving politics in the NW Outcrop...

Yep , I thought so , something needs to be done to bring down this North Wales dictatorship ! 
[/quote]

why don't you join gcc and nwcc and try and change it from the inside 

 

[todcaver]

Already tried a few times , maybe that's what they fear will happen , the empire infiltrated by a none believer  :-\

 

[notdavidgilmour]

Todcaver:  Sorry to pick up a point that you raised from page 2 of this thread, The video you refer to was posted by a member of UCET, who are not the ones who led everyone to believe there was no access to the Milwr system for 2 years, nor are they the ones who still lead people to believe that there is only one way in and they hold the magic key.  I hope this clarifies the situation 

 

[cavemanmike]

Todcaver:  Sorry to pick up a point that you raised from page 2 of this thread, The video you refer to was posted by a member of UCET, who are not the ones who led everyone to believe there was no access to the Milwr system for 2 years, nor are they the ones who still lead people to believe that there is only one way in and they hold the magic key.  I hope this clarifies the situation 

thanks for making that clear "notdavidgilmour" 

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I stopped getting upset by the grille/club empire nonsense and their kremlin like nonsense, nay, EUSSR like nonsense and just started ripping the locks off. Where this has happened, it has sometimes been the case that the lock gets considerably upgraded

Where there is a grille for a good reason, that's fine, where it's halfway up a cliff and the only reason it's there is pure willy waving. DEATH TO THEM ALL .

 

[Peter Burgess]

Which you paid for, of course.

 

[Disgusted from Cornwall.]

I don't care. My grinder/hacksaw/petrol cut off saw probably costs less to run over time. I don't know who these people are to attempt to manage other people's appreciation of history/geology/sport, but I didn't OK it, so they can boil their heads. If they want to waste money on locks, that's their own prerogative.

 

[Peter Burgess]

Call me old school, but I tend to pay for things I break that belong to other people. Admitting to breaking and entering is brave. For specific circumstances, I can tell you exactly why certain places are kept secure, but trying to explain to certain members on here is like trying to describe the niceties of saying please and thank you to a bunch of Neanderthals.

 

[badger]

do not know the issue with cornwall so will not comment.
, I have no issues with owners locking caves, 1, as long as the reasons are known why, and hopefully most have some from of easy access to bonafide cavers.
which is the case for many.
as for wilful damage, admitting to it on an open forum, personally I would choose my words more carefully, but would say it is hard to past judgement when one only knows half the facts

 

[Alex]

I wouldn't mind locked gates so much if they actually worked when you DO have the key. There is one (of very few) up here in the Dales (which is actually locked for a valid reason, which I won't go into) but because its so infrequently visited the mechanism had rusted and it took us 20 minutes of puzzling to actually open it.

 

[cap n chris]

Call me old school

You're old school, Peter.

It seems self-evident that if someone engages in criminal damage they are a criminal. Forcing entry is one thing - forcing entry or engaging in criminal damage, and being proud of it, escalates it to quite another dimension. The perp should be prosecuted. BCA should condemn it, and if the perp is a member of BCA they should be censured, kicked out and given a 3 year ban from reapplying. Imo.

 

[ZombieCake]

Well, metaphorically speaking, if it was on my land (I don't have any by the way) and I'd had a satisfactory access agreement and it was repeatedly violated perhaps some independent contractors may be required to rectify: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pRE23YfSvc8
Might also close the cave.  Forever.

 

[ZombieCake]

Of course not advocating any violence or other activity that may or may not be implied  in previous post.  Just trying to illustrate how some kinds of activity may well really p%$$ off the relevant people who may, if approached in a reasonable respectful and polite manor, may have reasonable answers.  May be a bit simplistic, but may be not. 

 

[todcaver]

I would love to know your reason why things are locked up , it can't be that complicated that it needs explaining ! ??

 

[todcaver]

Call me old school

You're old school, Peter.

It seems self-evident that if someone engages in criminal damage they are a criminal. Forcing entry is one thing - forcing entry or engaging in criminal damage, and being proud of it, escalates it to quite another dimension. The perp should be prosecuted. BCA should condemn it, and if the perp is a member of BCA they should be censured, kicked out and given a 3 year ban from reapplying. Imo.

Or a medal depending what side of the fence your sat on , 
Arseholes lock up cave or mine whilst  empire building / willy waggling or just riding their high horse -  None arsehole breaks into cave or mine ( has a look around then leaves without causing any damage except to arseholes pad lock - only harm I can see is your pride in ownership control freak tendency dented !  Ps if you chuck someone out of your club or bca as a punishment for breaking in what do you think they will do then / what do you hope to achieve ?